What is it?

ariel · 20th February 2005, 06:03 AM

Just ended on e-bay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

I think it is a Piso Podang with a European blade.
Any dissentions?

derek · 20th February 2005, 06:31 AM

My first thought as well.
-d

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Just ended on e-bay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT

I think it is a Piso Podang with a European blade.
Any dissentions?

tom hyle · 20th February 2005, 12:52 PM

I think it may all be European work

RSWORD · 20th February 2005, 09:54 PM

The hilt is not the typical Piso Podang hilt but it has some interesting features that make me think it is not strictly European. Rick's interesting anthropomorphic hilted Podang shows that there can be variations. His is an one of which shows there may have been some variation. The quillons have the general shape of those found on Piso Podang. The pommel on this example reminds me of certain toe pieces found on keris scabbards from the region. Also, the way the brass has been ribbed could be reminiscent of certain keris scabbards. The hilt very well could be Sumatran or Sulawesi and an one of a kind.

Conogre · 21st February 2005, 02:09 AM

I tend to agree with RS on this one.
Very good points.
Mike

Andrew · 21st February 2005, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I think it may all be European work

This is a feeling I share, Tom, but only in my gut.. Why do you think so?

tom hyle · 21st February 2005, 12:38 PM

The hilt closely resembles artillery (etc.) gladius (etc.) hilts; especially the pommel and the ribbed edging, which does not seem like an SE Asian feature to me, though of course it could be copied. The hilt looks plated (note the wear); not that that would define it as European; just an observation. It looks like there may be a flat area between the lagnets, rather than the open cave for a pitch-filled cavity. The casting work has an European look to me. Nothing solid. When it either has a full length tang or not is when I guess we'll know better.

ariel · 21st February 2005, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

The hilt is not the typical Piso Podang hilt but it has some interesting features that make me think it is not strictly European. Rick's interesting anthropomorphic hilted Podang shows that there can be variations. His is an one of which shows there may have been some variation. The quillons have the general shape of those found on Piso Podang. The pommel on this example reminds me of certain toe pieces found on keris scabbards from the region. Also, the way the brass has been ribbed could be reminiscent of certain keris scabbards. The hilt very well could be Sumatran or Sulawesi and an one of a kind.

I agree: there is significant European influence. However, I also agree with RSWORD that there are too many Indonesian motives to be safely ignored: no matter what, the ends of the quillons and the hemispherical pommel do look Piso Podang- ish. Also, the crude leather-only scabbard looks very "native" too.
A hybrid.

tom hyle · 22nd February 2005, 01:20 AM

Of course you may be right, but the scabbard, while not seeming very professional (though hard to tell age from crudity sometimes in a picture), is certainly an European type. Does piso pedang not ordinarily have a wooden scabbard? The pommel is not hemispherical. It is a shape commonly seen in Europe, though, where it is often referred to as a mushroom pommel. Piso pedang pommels are usually hemispherical with the hump facing toward the hand (what hump this one has more one way than the other seems to be to the butt), and usually hollow/open, somewhat after the manner of a dish antenna, to the butt end. I have no knowledge regarding the quillon tips and lagnets, but it's probably safe to say this is either a "Western" hilt with "Eastern" influence, or vice-versa.

tom hyle · 22nd February 2005, 01:37 PM

Further examination (I like looking at this sword) makes me think the end of the hilt may be open, but that may still be an European drip guard. I figure by subtraction that the hilt (probably excluding the lagnet) is about 15 1/2 cm; you never know where the unknowledgeable measure from, but that's about 6" and the grip part seems a bit on the long side for a piso pedang hilt(?). In any event, hopefully we'll know soon. Nice looking sword.

CharlesS · 22nd February 2005, 02:56 PM

I tend to agree that this is all European work, and also for me it's a gut thing. The hilt suggests only a similar style to the piso podang, but you really have to look for it...otherwise there are too many podang features missing. A podang hilt would more likely be decorated by engraving, or perhaps even gentle chieselling, but would keep its same basic form and characteristics...but this hilt is cast(!) into that shape. Certainly the scabbard does not suggest anything Batak. Surely can't rule it out...and I hate disagreeing with my "southern brutha from anotha mutha"(RSword), but for me this is just too European.

Rick · 22nd February 2005, 03:16 PM

If you magnify the hilt you can see what looks (to me) like a poorly executed casting . Also there is engraving , albeit minimal , on the faces of the hilt below the pommel cap .
Looks to me like a short sword blade re-hilted in S.E.A. in the European style , the casting looks like village work , not Euro munitions grade casting .

Conogre · 22nd February 2005, 11:15 PM

My first thought when I saw it was of one of the old Ethiopian "gladius" type swords....I sent one to Hal several years ago w/a brass hilt which ended up being Ethiopian, the first I'd heard of those from that area.
Mike

RSWORD · 23rd February 2005, 02:45 AM

Charles,

Nothing wrong with disagreeing with your Southern Brutha. After all, you say potato, I say tater.

I went back and had a second look at this thing and noticed a few other things about it. First, the seller is out of Indonesia. While one cannot conclude anything about a piece based on where it is currently located, that is an interesting thing. Why would a gladius hilted european sword be in Indonesia? Is this style of blade and hilt common of the Dutch? When looking at one of the pics where you have a good profile shot of the handle from a top view, the handle reminds me of a tulwar handle. The way the grip swells out on both sides, the cross guards and even the pommel cap are not unlike tulwar grips. The blade is also unlike blades I have seen on those gladius hilted european swords. This one has a deep wide fuller its full length whereas those european type swords tend to be more diamond shape in cross profile. The simple leather scabbard with seam is not unlike similar scabbards used to house tulwars. More food for thought?

Rick · 23rd February 2005, 03:07 AM

Considering the poor condition of the blade I think the scabbard style is a non issue in that it most likely is a replacement for the long lost original .

tom hyle · 24th February 2005, 01:39 AM

The hilt is not contoured like a tulwar hilt. A tulwar hilt is swelled in the middle, yes, and narrower at both ends, but it is (usually conspicuously) smalles at the top, such that the little finger can wrap around well. This hilt is fairly fat and round or nearly so at the butt, and the narrowest part is at the bottom, for the forefinger, which is an European feature, largely relating to control in their traditional thrusting methods.
You might note that I said artillery (etc.) gladius (etc.). The general uninlayed "tiffany" type (metal) hilt is not limitted to gladii, nor to the artillery, nor to military weapons, for that matter. In the simple cross guard and mushroom or sperish pommel it is not uncommon on yatagans and straight SE broadswords, as here, and is not unseen on sabres and smallswords, as well, of course, as gladius type blades, including occassional SE varients.
I noticed that part that looks engraved; looks different than the rest......
I don't really see the crudity, but then I can't magnify it; where's Spock when you need him?

20th February 2005, 06:03 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What is it? Just ended on e-bay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MEWA:IT I think it is a Piso Podang with a European blade. Any dissentions?

22nd February 2005, 01:20 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Of course you may be right, but the scabbard, while not seeming very professional (though hard to tell age from crudity sometimes in a picture), is certainly an European type. Does piso pedang not ordinarily have a wooden scabbard? The pommel is not hemispherical. It is a shape commonly seen in Europe, though, where it is often referred to as a mushroom pommel. Piso pedang pommels are usually hemispherical with the hump facing toward the hand (what hump this one has more one way than the other seems to be to the butt), and usually hollow/open, somewhat after the manner of a dish antenna, to the butt end. I have no knowledge regarding the quillon tips and lagnets, but it's probably safe to say this is either a "Western" hilt with "Eastern" influence, or vice-versa. Last edited by tom hyle; 22nd February 2005 at 01:28 PM.

22nd February 2005, 03:16 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,264	If you magnify the hilt you can see what looks (to me) like a poorly executed casting . Also there is engraving , albeit minimal , on the faces of the hilt below the pommel cap . Looks to me like a short sword blade re-hilted in S.E.A. in the European style , the casting looks like village work , not Euro munitions grade casting . Last edited by Rick; 22nd February 2005 at 03:28 PM.

20th February 2005, 12:52 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I think it may all be European work

20th February 2005, 09:54 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	The hilt is not the typical Piso Podang hilt but it has some interesting features that make me think it is not strictly European. Rick's interesting anthropomorphic hilted Podang shows that there can be variations. His is an one of which shows there may have been some variation. The quillons have the general shape of those found on Piso Podang. The pommel on this example reminds me of certain toe pieces found on keris scabbards from the region. Also, the way the brass has been ribbed could be reminiscent of certain keris scabbards. The hilt very well could be Sumatran or Sulawesi and an one of a kind.

21st February 2005, 02:09 AM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I tend to agree with RS on this one. Very good points. Mike

21st February 2005, 12:38 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The hilt closely resembles artillery (etc.) gladius (etc.) hilts; especially the pommel and the ribbed edging, which does not seem like an SE Asian feature to me, though of course it could be copied. The hilt looks plated (note the wear); not that that would define it as European; just an observation. It looks like there may be a flat area between the lagnets, rather than the open cave for a pitch-filled cavity. The casting work has an European look to me. Nothing solid. When it either has a full length tang or not is when I guess we'll know better.

22nd February 2005, 01:37 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Further examination (I like looking at this sword) makes me think the end of the hilt may be open, but that may still be an European drip guard. I figure by subtraction that the hilt (probably excluding the lagnet) is about 15 1/2 cm; you never know where the unknowledgeable measure from, but that's about 6" and the grip part seems a bit on the long side for a piso pedang hilt(?). In any event, hopefully we'll know soon. Nice looking sword.

22nd February 2005, 02:56 PM	#11
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	I tend to agree that this is all European work, and also for me it's a gut thing. The hilt suggests only a similar style to the piso podang, but you really have to look for it...otherwise there are too many podang features missing. A podang hilt would more likely be decorated by engraving, or perhaps even gentle chieselling, but would keep its same basic form and characteristics...but this hilt is cast(!) into that shape. Certainly the scabbard does not suggest anything Batak. Surely can't rule it out...and I hate disagreeing with my "southern brutha from anotha mutha"(RSword), but for me this is just too European.

22nd February 2005, 11:15 PM	#13
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	My first thought when I saw it was of one of the old Ethiopian "gladius" type swords....I sent one to Hal several years ago w/a brass hilt which ended up being Ethiopian, the first I'd heard of those from that area. Mike

23rd February 2005, 02:45 AM	#14
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Charles, Nothing wrong with disagreeing with your Southern Brutha. After all, you say potato, I say tater. I went back and had a second look at this thing and noticed a few other things about it. First, the seller is out of Indonesia. While one cannot conclude anything about a piece based on where it is currently located, that is an interesting thing. Why would a gladius hilted european sword be in Indonesia? Is this style of blade and hilt common of the Dutch? When looking at one of the pics where you have a good profile shot of the handle from a top view, the handle reminds me of a tulwar handle. The way the grip swells out on both sides, the cross guards and even the pommel cap are not unlike tulwar grips. The blade is also unlike blades I have seen on those gladius hilted european swords. This one has a deep wide fuller its full length whereas those european type swords tend to be more diamond shape in cross profile. The simple leather scabbard with seam is not unlike similar scabbards used to house tulwars. More food for thought?

23rd February 2005, 03:07 AM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,264	Considering the poor condition of the blade I think the scabbard style is a non issue in that it most likely is a replacement for the long lost original .

24th February 2005, 01:39 AM	#16
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The hilt is not contoured like a tulwar hilt. A tulwar hilt is swelled in the middle, yes, and narrower at both ends, but it is (usually conspicuously) smalles at the top, such that the little finger can wrap around well. This hilt is fairly fat and round or nearly so at the butt, and the narrowest part is at the bottom, for the forefinger, which is an European feature, largely relating to control in their traditional thrusting methods. You might note that I said artillery (etc.) gladius (etc.). The general uninlayed "tiffany" type (metal) hilt is not limitted to gladii, nor to the artillery, nor to military weapons, for that matter. In the simple cross guard and mushroom or sperish pommel it is not uncommon on yatagans and straight SE broadswords, as here, and is not unseen on sabres and smallswords, as well, of course, as gladius type blades, including occassional SE varients. I noticed that part that looks engraved; looks different than the rest...... I don't really see the crudity, but then I can't magnify it; where's Spock when you need him?