Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th May 2010, 05:04 PM   #1
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 979
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default PALEMBANG HILT AND KERIS

I have a problem with this Palembang keris and hilt. All I want to do is to clean the black-rusty blade with "kelapa" (coconut) husk. But unfortunately, the hilt is fixed firmly to the pesi. Too firm, and not possible for you to open or even to turn the hilt with your bare hand...

What would you suggest me to do: (1) Must I open the hilt first (2) but how to open such firm fixation? Or (3) just submerge all -- blade and hilt -- to the "blandongan" full with coconut husk? (4) Or clean the blade, without unfix the hilt? How?

Thanks in advance for your advice,

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
 
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 07:10 PM   #2
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,970
Default

Hello Ganjawulung,

do you have tried to heat the blade? Most of the time I have had success by this. Heat the blade and try careful to move the hilt. Sometimes you have to repeat this many times until the hilt become incoherent.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 07:20 PM   #3
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Salam pak ganja,

Could u post some close up pix of that lovely hilt?

Is it ivory?
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 08:00 PM   #4
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,526
Default

Hello Pak Ganja,

Beautiful hilt - very expressive fangs! Sure looks ivory.

The hilt could be still fixed with resin - heat will easily do to remove the blade.

The pesi could also be heavily corroded and rust holding the hilt in place. Although there is a chance of damage, it would IMHO still be better to remove it, especially before soaking it since water and rust won't do any good and there's a chance that the hilt may get cracked from accumulating rust eventually.

Are there any cracks visible close the hilt's base? If not, it should be pretty safe to apply gentle heat to the sorsoran area (holding the hilt/selut with a heat-resistant glove helps to avoid heating the hilt). When hot, gently try to twist the hilt. If it doesn't move, let it cool completely and reheat/cool several times. I'm sure you've utilized this procedure quite a few times already...

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 09:51 PM   #5
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 979
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Thanks Detlef, Moshah and Kai,

For this time being, I still keep it like it is. With the hilt firmly fixed. IMHO, it is not ivory but "duyung" or dugong hilt. You may look at the different brownish and yellowish colour of it. Images below, are different views of this hilt. The size, it seems bigger than usual...

I will try the last step to open the hilt. Then, what would you suggest the way to clean the blade without unfixing the hilt, please?

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
     
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 10:27 PM   #6
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,507
Default

Pak Ganja, removal of a firmly fixed hilt is not usually a problem.

If you use a candle or small kerosene lamp for the heat source, there is no possibility of doing damage to the hilt, provided you are reasonably careful.

I suggest that you should work with bare hands, so that you can feel how hot the blade and hilt become during the process, this will safeguard against over heating.

I can understand your caution with attempts to remove the hilt on this keris. I have had two Palembang tangs break while attempting to remove a rusted on hilt. I suspect that perhaps the adhesive that they used to use in that area may have had a corrosive effect.

If this were my keris I would try the heat first, but I would not exert excessive force in trying to twist it off.

If you are bound and determined not to remove the hilt, the blade can be cleaned by repeated brushing with a mild acid, and rinse with water. Freshly squeezed lime juice will do it.

It would probably be a good idea to coat the selut with nail polish, and to wrap the hilt with plastic cling wrap before you start. The nail polish will come off easily with acetone, when you finish the job.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th May 2010, 10:56 PM   #7
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 979
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Thanks Alan,

With heat treatment, although only with small kerosene lamp ("teplok" in javanese), doesn't it hurt the blade? Because I like so much the blade too..

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
 
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2010, 12:33 AM   #8
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,970
Default

No problem when you don't over heat the blade, after warangan it don't will be visible anymore.

BTW, very nice hilt and blade IMHO, is there a sheat?
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2010, 12:54 AM   #9
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,813
Default

Cover the area to be heated tightly with aluminum foil.
Heat transfer with no soot .
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2010, 02:45 AM   #10
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 979
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Thanks Rick for the advice,

I would try to be brave to unfix it... but step by step. Maybe I would try to "steam" it first, not to heat it in direct flame...

@sajen, yes Detlef, it has a Palembang warangka. But still in repairement of the "gandar" side, broken a bit. Sure, later I will post the foto of it after it is ready..

Thanks, for all the advice.

GANJAWULUNG
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2010, 03:01 AM   #11
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,507
Default

The heat from a candle or a small kero lamp (senthir) will definitely not hurt the blade.

Yes, it will get very dirty, but the soot just washes off with turps, and you need to clean and stain the blade anyway.

I would not go anywhere near it with steam, because unlike a direct heat, the steam is not controllable, and you do not want that hilt to get bathed in steam.

I've removed all sorts of hilts with heat, as I describe, not just keris hilts, but pedangs, tombaks, badiks, western custom knives, old western cutlery --- all sorts of blades from all sorts of hilts with all sorts of adhesives, including modern epoxies. Because I've had so much experience I usually use a propane torch when I'm at home, but I will never recommend that to somebody new at this. A candle or a little kero lamp will do exactly the same job, its just dirtier --- which doesn't matter at all, and slower, which also doesn't matter.


Afterthought:- even if you did get the blade really hot, you've got to take up to straw-blue to draw the temper from heat-treated steel, and this part of a keris blade is not heat-treated anyway, its still soft, so there's no temper to draw. Don't forget:- you're only heating the sorsoran. You just can't get it to this sort of heat with a candle. Direct heat will not hurt it.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2010, 08:11 AM   #12
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 979
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Not succeeded yet..
I've tried the first way (1) steamed the blade upon a pot of water (of course, it was an unused pot) for more than an hour -- hot, cold, then hot, and cold etc. Not moved at all. And (2) I took a big risk by heating the blade upon a small flame of kitchen gas -- hot, cold, and hot, cold. Not succeeded too... Very "stubborn"... (image below)

Then, I let it as it is again. And thinking of trying to clean the blade without submerging the hilt, of course... Still thinking how to do it.

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
  
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2010, 10:16 AM   #13
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,507
Default

If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free.

Buy a candle.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2010, 11:57 AM   #14
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,970
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free.

Buy a candle.



Agree, don't capitulate.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2010, 01:54 AM   #15
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Wow, very risky! I really hope you to be careful

I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is?

What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same...

thanks in advance pals for letting me know...
Attached Images
 
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2010, 05:24 AM   #16
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 979
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Buy a candle.

Not succeeded yet, Alan. Not moved at all...

GANJAWULUNG
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 12:59 AM   #17
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 979
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Thanks Alan, and all,

The hilt is already unfixed, and I've cleaned the blade too....

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
 
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 01:03 AM   #18
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 979
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moshah
I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is?

What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same...

Dear Moshah,
Honestly, I am not the expert on this. Just collecting. I think Shahrial (Alamshah) could explain it well.

GANJAWULUNG
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 02:03 AM   #19
DAHenkel
Member
 
DAHenkel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 125
Default

Moshah - There are a lot of variations of keris hilts from South Sumatra. Pak Ganja's hilt is generally understood to be a Palembang hilt. Yours on the other hand probably comes from somewhere else in South Sumatra - I suspect Lampung. I recall a couple similar examples provenanced to Lampung anyway. However there is so little information on these areas and unless or until we find a knowledgable local collector the area will remain imperfectly understood. I was just in Palembang and visited all the main local museums but unfortunately the only weapons display - in the Sultan Mahmud Badruddin Museum - was small and included several obviously non-Palembang pieces. It was not an edifying experience...
DAHenkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 04:01 AM   #20
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 979
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Thanks Dave,

I've sent message to Karaeng Kesuma in facebook to join this discussion, if he won't mind. He stays in Lampung, and has a couple of Sumatran keris photo collection in his facebook...

Btw, this Palembang hilt. Could I compose it with this silver pendokok?

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
  
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 05:52 AM   #21
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,526
Thumbs up

Hello Pak Ganja,

Congrats, I like the pamor!

Did perseverance do the job or how did you got the hilt off?


Quote:
Btw, this Palembang hilt. Could I compose it with this silver pendokok?

Looks perfectly fine to me. Most Palembang keris, even with lesser hilts, seem to come with silver pendokok and I was already wondering about the combination of such a finely carved ivory hilt and a fairly simple brass pendokok. Any hints from the condition of the pesi and materials utilized to fix the hulu on how old the combination might be?

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 06:14 AM   #22
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,526
Default

Quote:
IMHO, it is not ivory but "duyung" or dugong hilt.

Forgot to comment earlier: Ivory is a general term and includes other tooth from animals like dugong, walrus, hippotamus, etc.

P.S.: It would be great if you could invite more Indonesian keris collectors to our little warung kopi! We all realize that the language barrier can be a challenge. Every contribution would be valuable and appreciated though!

BTW, are there any good translation services like babelfish that cover English to Bahasa Indonesia or Malay?

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 06:50 AM   #23
ganjawulung
Member
 
ganjawulung's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 979
Send a message via Yahoo to ganjawulung
Default

Yes Kai,

It took a lot of patience, to repeat the same process -- hot, cold, hot, cold. More than any javanese keris. Yes, the "candle method" that Alan suggested, helped much the process.

The fixing material, seems to be traditional -- blackish, and rusty laquer. I don't know precisely what it is. Maybe like traditional javanese 'lacquer' (I don't know to describe it too), but more rusty... (picture below)

The "hard" ivory -- not elephant tusk -- also make the hilt difficult to remove, because of the narrow hole, and the rusty lacquer material. The pesi is shorter than javanese pesi, but still in good condition.

I've asked our Indonesian college to join this discussion group, but usually they participate passively, reading this discussion. They have some discussion group in Bahasa -- like FDK (Forum Diskusi Keris) in Yahoo with more than 200 members, and also you may see in Facebook too, there are some small groups of discussion. In Bahasa, of course...

GANJAWULUNG
Attached Images
 
ganjawulung is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 12:02 PM   #24
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAHenkel
Moshah - There are a lot of variations of keris hilts from South Sumatra. Pak Ganja's hilt is generally understood to be a Palembang hilt. Yours on the other hand probably comes from somewhere else in South Sumatra - I suspect Lampung. I recall a couple similar examples provenanced to Lampung anyway. However there is so little information on these areas and unless or until we find a knowledgable local collector the area will remain imperfectly understood. I was just in Palembang and visited all the main local museums but unfortunately the only weapons display - in the Sultan Mahmud Badruddin Museum - was small and included several obviously non-Palembang pieces. It was not an edifying experience...
Hi, agreed with Dave's comments about both hilts. Palembang is a tricky place, as we know, it's a centre where many regional forms meet. There are locals in various keris/study groups, concentrating on the local forms. Karaeng Kesuma, is one such collector. There are others..
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 12:15 PM   #25
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,970
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Thanks Dave,

I've sent message to Karaeng Kesuma in facebook to join this discussion, if he won't mind. He stays in Lampung, and has a couple of Sumatran keris photo collection in his facebook...

Btw, this Palembang hilt. Could I compose it with this silver pendokok?

GANJAWULUNG


Hello Pak Ganja,

the silver pendokok look nice with the hilt and blade. Do you want to give a warangan to the blade or you want to let it unstained?

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 12:37 PM   #26
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Thanks Dave, pak Ganja and bro Alam for those inputs.

I asked because two things:

1) Normally lampung hilts have long, curved beaks.

2) The hilt picture I posted have similar motives to pak Ganja's ivory hilt motives.

I didn't doubt it will be from Lampung, but was the curves on the posted hilt's body is normal for it's kind?

I really know very little about lampung hilts, so any inputs from all of you are really helpful...
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 01:08 PM   #27
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,970
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moshah
Thanks Dave, pak Ganja and bro Alam for those inputs.

I asked because two things:

1) Normally lampung hilts have long, curved beaks.

2) The hilt picture I posted have similar motives to pak Ganja's ivory hilt motives.

I didn't doubt it will be from Lampung, but was the curves on the posted hilt's body is normal for it's kind?

I really know very little about lampung hilts, so any inputs from all of you are really helpful...



Hello Moshah,

there are a lot of different styles of this south sumatran hilt. But I also don't know how to differentiate between.

Here examples from my collection. The pictures are taken fast so I apologize for the quality.

Regards,

Detlef
Attached Images
     
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 01:15 PM   #28
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,970
Default

And there is a hilt type with similar features but also with style elements from Cirebon. So I am never sure from where this hilt coming.
Attached Images
    
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 02:27 PM   #29
Moshah
Member
 
Moshah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 171
Default

Hi Detlef,

Thanks for those beautiful hilts pics!

i think it bears similarities to your hilt no 1 (the first pix), especially the carving motives.

Is that first pix hilt was a true blue lampung hilt?

Could u post the picture of the first one, this time from the back of the hilt?

Sorry for the inconveniences...
Moshah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2010, 04:14 PM   #30
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 6,970
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moshah
Hi Detlef,

Thanks for those beautiful hilts pics!

i think it bears similarities to your hilt no 1 (the first pix), especially the carving motives.

Is that first pix hilt was a true blue lampung hilt?

Could u post the picture of the first one, this time from the back of the hilt?

Sorry for the inconveniences...


Hi Moshah,

I received the hilt together with the keris and I I ever have thought that it is a Palembang keris.

Here the requested pictures. The keris was shown in this thread before:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10998

Regards,

Detlef
Attached Images
  
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:18 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.