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Old 20th June 2016, 01:23 PM   #1
thinreadline
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Default Ivory or bone ?

Any opinions on this knife handle as to the material. The silver mounts are Sheffield hallmarked for 1886 .
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Old 20th June 2016, 01:39 PM   #2
colin henshaw
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Ivory
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Old 20th June 2016, 01:52 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin henshaw
Ivory


Thank you Colin .... may I ask how one tells ?
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Old 20th June 2016, 03:36 PM   #4
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Colin refer to the Schreger lines. But I've seen a similar dagger with an early sort of plastic which imitates this Schreger lines. Can you use the hot needle test at an unvisible place?

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 20th June 2016, 04:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Colin refer to the Schreger lines. But I've seen a similar dagger with an early sort of plastic which imitates this Schreger lines. Can you use the hot needle test at an unvisible place?

Regards,
Detlef


Thanks Detlef , tried that and no its not plastic ... I didnt think they would use silver hallmarked mounts on a plastic grip , but you never know of course .
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Old 21st June 2016, 08:55 PM   #6
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Ivorine, as used on kitchenknifes, can look very much like this.
Sometimes including the lines.
However, I think that ivorine would not crack like this handle

Best regards,
Willem
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Old 23rd June 2016, 09:46 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Ivorine, as used on kitchenknifes, can look very much like this.
Sometimes including the lines.
However, I think that ivorine would not crack like this handle

Best regards,
Willem


I looked at two replacement substances for Ivory... Ivorine which was invented in 1899 thus too late for this..and Bakelite also a later invention... I have to say I think Ivory in this case... I cannot see the full stamps thus unable to say who the maker may be ...
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Old 23rd June 2016, 10:13 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
I looked at two replacement substances for Ivory... Ivorine which was invented in 1899 thus too late for this..and Bakelite also a later invention... I have to say I think Ivory in this case... I cannot see the full stamps thus unable to say who the maker may be ...


Salaams Ibrahiim , the maker is Henry Wigful of Sheffield
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Old 23rd June 2016, 09:29 PM   #9
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I don't think this is ivory. Some translucence along the edges of cracks, dings, and scratches causes ivory to typically show hotter coloration there (red and orange, not black as is shown here). I think the grain is also too strait (with no intersection) and uninterrupted. Have you done the rub test?

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Old 23rd June 2016, 09:36 PM   #10
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ivory indee
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Old 23rd June 2016, 10:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Ivorine, as used on kitchenknifes, can look very much like this.
Sometimes including the lines.


This was what I've meant, I think that the chance is great that we are looking at this material by this dagger. But I could be wrong.
Sure you only can get when you would remove the upper silver cap.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 23rd June 2016, 10:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helleri
I don't think this is ivory. Some translucence along the edges of cracks, dings, and scratches causes ivory to typically show hotter coloration there (red and orange, not black as is shown here). I think the grain is also too strait (with no intersection) and uninterrupted. Have you done the rub test?


What is the rub test ?
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Old 23rd June 2016, 10:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE
ivory indee


What is ivory indee please ?
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Old 24th June 2016, 12:26 AM   #14
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The regularly alternating dark and light lines are characteristic of the type of celluloid known as “French ivory”, first made in the 1860s and often found in knife handles.

(Shown is a knife with French ivory scales made by George Wostenholm of Sheffield).
Impossible to say what environmental or traumatic effects caused the longitudinal fracture. With as much certainty as possible from merely photographic evidence, I vote “not ivory”.
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Old 24th June 2016, 02:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkley
The regularly alternating dark and light lines are characteristic of the type of celluloid known as “French ivory”, first made in the 1860s and often found in knife handles.

(Shown is a knife with French ivory scales made by George Wostenholm of Sheffield).
Impossible to say what environmental or traumatic effects caused the longitudinal fracture. With as much certainty as possible from merely photographic evidence, I vote “not ivory”.



All very interesting but wouldnt celluloid melt when a hot needle is applied ?
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:00 PM   #16
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I don't think ivorine would crack like that, but ivory will. At least I've never seen cracks on table knives with such ivorine handles...
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:27 PM   #17
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I have to agree with Colin on this. These has been my observations as well.
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Old 25th June 2016, 12:02 AM   #18
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A cursory Google search for “cracked celluloid” seems to indicate that it is a problem, at least among fountain pen collectors. However, thinreadline is certainly correct that a hot pin should have shown a positive reaction - in the case of celluloid, that could well be in the form of bursting into flames.
All of which reinforces the difficulty of identifying ivory from a photo on a computer monitor. Sadly, my own collection has several pieces where my optimism proved to be mere wishful thinking when the item was in hand.
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Old 25th June 2016, 04:40 AM   #19
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Ivory.

I have seen a lot of both, and ivory is the only material that would crack like this.
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Old 25th June 2016, 08:02 AM   #20
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This is all very interesting and informative , thank you all so much .
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Old 25th June 2016, 01:53 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinreadline
What is ivory indee please ?



Think it was meant "indeed".
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Old 25th June 2016, 04:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Think it was meant "indeed".

that is correct
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Old 27th June 2016, 12:57 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE
that is correct


Ha ha , OK I understand now ... I thought it was some French technical term for an ivory like substance made in India !
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Old 27th June 2016, 02:58 PM   #24
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Hi. Ivory vs bone is easy. Bone has tiny holes that you can see under magnification.

The "Hot wire" test is good for distinguishing between plastics and ivory though not all plastics will react clearly.

Barring fakery, I would bet on ivory. Also, Ivory cracks as an almost natural occurrence, plastic does not except under stress.
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Old 27th June 2016, 04:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinreadline
What is the rub test ?


I vaguely recall that one can rub suspect ivory until it is warmed, then smell it; a camphor odor would indicate that it was a man-made imitation. I don't have a reference for this, my failing memory will have to serve.
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Old 27th June 2016, 07:22 PM   #26
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I think ivory's supposed to be cooler to the touch than plastic or bone, too. If you put the piece in a cold basement or cellar for awhile and then pick it up, it should feel cold like a piece of stone because of the higher mineral content.
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Old 27th June 2016, 08:06 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue lander
I think ivory's supposed to be cooler to the touch than plastic or bone, too...

Yes, someone taught me that, once.
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Old 28th June 2016, 02:36 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkley
The regularly alternating dark and light lines are characteristic of the type of celluloid known as “French ivory”, first made in the 1860s and often found in knife handles.

(Shown is a knife with French ivory scales made by George Wostenholm of Sheffield).
Impossible to say what environmental or traumatic effects caused the longitudinal fracture. With as much certainty as possible from merely photographic evidence, I vote “not ivory”.



It appears to be French Ivory like your knife scales... thus I agree with you. As already pointed out this is the 1879 factory in Sheffield producing silver and sterling silver and silver plate, Ivory, Mother of Pearl and stag horn handled cutlery etc....see http://www.picturesheffield.com/fro...s=2&action=zoom for a picture of the man himself...for research purposes.

I occasionally discover that sword makers were either cutlers before or after their sword making days were over...such as the great sword makers at Shotley Bridge who became cutlers.
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Old 1st July 2016, 03:13 PM   #29
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A hot pin in bone smells like burning hair. A hot pin in ivory smells like burning cotton.

Celluloid and other early plastics go back to the third quarter of the 19th century. Ivorine...hmmm.,,,composites of ground scrap ivory and glue go back as far as well.

The Russian mastadon mined ivory of the earlier periods can fool you in some instances and has a somewhat different look than modern elephant. Especially if the mastadon stock was from the outer layers (imo).

Cheers

GC
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Old 2nd July 2016, 05:35 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotspur
A hot pin in bone smells like burning hair. A hot pin in ivory smells like burning cotton.

Celluloid and other early plastics go back to the third quarter of the 19th century. Ivorine...hmmm.,,,composites of ground scrap ivory and glue go back as far as well.

GC


Hello Hotspur,

I tried the hot needle on ivory, bone and some sort of fake ivory and NONE of them was affected in any way. So I can say this is definitely a more anecdotal than a working and reliable test.

Second, when polishing bone and ivory, I noticed they smell very similarly, like the dentist drilling a tooth, so the smell test can also be very misleading.

So I believe the most reliable way to identify ivory is by examining its structure under a magnifying glass.
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