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Old 30th April 2016, 07:58 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Nobody ever claimed here that this particular Kora was actual armament of a royal retinue. Nor was a claim introduced that this particular Kora was even a commemorative piece sold at the Durbar pageant.

The only thing that was said, that according to Oliver, weapons of similar decorative motives were manufactured en masse for Delhi Durbars.

For some reasons, some people misinterpreted ( misread? misunderstood?) the meaning of this statement, took it as an categorical claim about the posted Kora and started a pseudo-academic Jihad , demanding documented and photographic proof affirming the idea nobody here ever advanced.

Please re-read my posts ## 9 and 24 and try to find a single statement that was misleading Panzerraptor or anybody else about historical, artistic or commercial value of the Kora.

Once again, I think that a question asked by a novice deserves truthful, informative and respectful answer. No sarcasm. No snarks. And that was exactly I and Jim tried to convey.


I do not understand why play with facts? You wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
These items date from the end of 19 to the beginning of 20 century. They are ceremonial. They might have been produced as tourist items, but Oliver Pinchot in his book of the late R. Wagner collection had shown a khanda with very similar decorations. In his comment, items of such decorative abundance were produced for the Dehli durbars ( 1877,1903,1911), all-India assemblies at the coronations of British Kings, them being also The Emperors of India. Every Rajah brought a retinue armed to the teeth with very "show-y" weapons. Theatrical? Historical? Depends on the point of view of a collector.

Unless you are specifically interested in the battle-proven weapons, these shields and kora reflect prevailing trends in Indian arms culture of that time.


It now appears that there is no documentary evidence that such swords (as we discuss) worn on the Durbar. Moreover such swords - it is not "part of Indian culture." It - kitsch.

But in the absence of evidence to support "the version that these swords were made for Durbar", conversations were reduced to thinking "posed" thousands of people in the photo or not

Some forgotten that those who "posed" no such swords (which we are discussing).
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Old 30th April 2016, 08:37 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian

In this spirit, the picture of the big guy (perhaps a Sikh) earlier in this thread wearing the spiked elephant armor would seem to have the characteristics of a staged portrait. Some of his costume may well be his own, but it looks to me like he was dressed up further for this picture. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose, but I don't see any reason why some of these pictures were not "staged," as Jim suggested. Ian.
Ian, I do not know of any Indian elephant armor that looks like this armor, I see no reason to assume that this armor is not real until proven otherwise. If anyone has a picture of Indian elephant armor that resembles the armor being worn in this photo please post it.

I have posted the only other photo I know of Indian spiked armor.

(Indian (Rajasthan) back armor, 17th c, plates of steel with cast pointed spikes joined together with steel mail, giving it strength and flexibility. The entire armour consists of nine rows with five spiked plates in each row. It is padded with red velvet. There are four laces, one at each corner, with which it was tied over a zirah (shirt of mail), L: 66, width : 65 cm. The National Museum, New Delhi.)


Here is a description of the executioner photo from The Wide World Magazine, Volume 1. 1898
Quote:
LORD HIGH EXECUTIONER OF THE STATE OF REWAH, CENTRAL INDIA.

This picturesque person is not a full - dress character out of one of Mr. Gilbert's operas, nor is he a candidate for a prize at a fancy-dress ball. No, he is none of these things. Do not laugh when I tell you that this is the Lord High Executioner of the State of Rewah, in Central India. As you may see for yourselves, he is a man of most gigantic stature, and he is so rigged up as to inspire feelings of terror in the condemned criminal, whose head he is presently to slice off with his formidable scimitar. He is stuck all over with spikes, even to the underneath part of his forearms, and he would be an unpleasant person to run up against on dark nights, for more reasons than one.
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Old 30th April 2016, 08:44 AM   #63
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Dima, relax. The rare kora of Durbar of Bengal court. Don't upset people.
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Old 30th April 2016, 09:32 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I can assure you Ariel that it is not necessary for me to re-read any of your posts since i have already read yours and everyone else's on this thread 5 or 6 times. But please feel free to re-read my posts as i don't believe any of them have accused you of misleading anybody.


Of course, not.

You understood it very well.
Others, obviously, either relied too much on Google translator ( charitable interpretation) or had some other agenda in mind. Well, to each his own:-)
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Old 30th April 2016, 09:55 AM   #65
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These references do not talk about weapons.
And a gentle reminder: 1. Religion of a ruler at a certain period of history does not always reflect religion of a large number of his subjects; 2. Religion of a ruler does not alway reflect the type of weaponry his military uses.

To wit:

I thought we were talking about Kora as a Bengali weapon, weren't we?

Suggest to read Elgood's glossary in his book on Indian arms, re. Bughalee ( p. 238) and Kora ( p.252)
Even Mughals might used it. Sharp steel is sharp steel :-;
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Old 30th April 2016, 11:28 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Others, obviously, either relied too much on Google translator ( charitable interpretation) or had some other agenda in mind. Well, to each his own:-)


Dear Ariel, please tell me which of your phrases not correctly translated Google translator?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
They are ceremonial.


You say that swords (similar Kora, which we are discussing) - ceremonial. I understand correctly?

I understand that it can not be proven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Panzerraptor,
They might have been produced as tourist items, but Oliver Pinchot in his book of the late R. Wagner collection had shown a khanda with very similar decorations. In his comment, items of such decorative abundance were produced for the Dehli durbars ( 1877,1903,1911), all-India assemblies at the coronations of British Kings, them being also The Emperors of India. Every Rajah brought a retinue armed to the teeth with very "show-y" weapons.


You say that swords (similar Kora, which we are discussing) - can be souvenirs. But, quoting the book of respected Oliver Pinchot, refuting his same thoughts.

At the same time we have seen that in the book - just a personal opinion respected Oliver. And unfortunately, this view is not supported by historical sources ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
...these shields and kora reflect prevailing trends in Indian arms culture of that time.


Do you honestly think that these items (such as those that we are discussing), once considered India as a weapon ????))))))

Cultural traditions such swords, too, do not reflect. Or do you think otherwise?
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Old 30th April 2016, 12:21 PM   #67
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Quote:
1. Religion of a ruler at a certain period of history does not always reflect religion of a large number of his subjects; 2. Religion of a ruler does not alway reflect the type of weaponry his military uses. To wit: I thought we were talking about Kora as a Bengali weapon, weren't we?

You told about official Durbar, aren't you? You as always very quickly change your opinion.

Quote:
Suggest to read Elgood's glossary in his book on Indian arms, re. Bughalee ( p. 238) and Kora ( p.252) Even Mughals might used it. Sharp steel is sharp steel :-;

How from this follows that the subject is muslim's?

You should be careful to give advice to novice collectors. This may render them a poor service, as has already happened some times.
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Old 30th April 2016, 01:00 PM   #68
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The Siberian Tag Team at work:-)))))

Please, both of you, try to read carefully and think before you fire up your responses. Then, hopefully, you will be able to understand thing better. Example: Elgood's notes are not directed at proving that Bengalis were Muslim. They prove that Kora was a Bengali weapon, too.

In general, your comments bore and annoy me.
Please ignore my posts as I am trying to ignore yours.


OK?
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Old 30th April 2016, 03:08 PM   #69
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It is a good idea - to offer to ignore the message. Especially when you can not answer the questions that you ask
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Old 30th April 2016, 04:25 PM   #70
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LOL!!!
You guys are amazing!! Why ignore each other?

This thread IS a durbar!!!!! A festival of hilarity in these barbs and inuendos filled with theatrical and entertaining performances, and bringing in a scope of topics, subject matter of amazing dimension, presented in wonderfully creative scenes.

As this gala thread unfolds , it is amazing to have revealing and informative courses in English, geopolitical history, cultural studies, theosophy and even photographic history and theory among others I may have overlooked.

Mahratt, may I say your English is vastly improving as you bring in new words as well as edification on others such as 'kitsch' and even your astute understanding of the 'word play' on 'posing' etc.

As always, Estcrh you are remarkable in posting these sources and added images!!!! Fascinating notes on this type of armor, I thought Ian was using the term 'elephant' as metaphorical referring to the size of this guy
In any case, there are of course cases of various armor used in India (Rajputs?) which were referred to as 'coat of nails'. I doubt that they had these huge spikes, but who knows.......after all, this IS from a DURBAR

Sometime in the past, around the early part of this thread I mentioned koras of this form (I think that was the thread topic if memory serves)..were used in ritual (sacrifice of doves). I will rely on the edification of the word smiths here to determine if that might be considered 'ceremonial'.

Is the form Bengali? Some examples are, but the kora is 'believed; to be effectively Nepalese.
Now, I am unsure whether there were border check points to ensure that
these forms were not diffused into either region.
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Old 30th April 2016, 11:10 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
LOL!!!
Fascinating notes on this type of armor, I thought Ian was using the term 'elephant' as metaphorical referring to the size of this guy
In any case, there are of course cases of various armor used in India (Rajputs?) which were referred to as 'coat of nails'. I doubt that they had these huge spikes, but who knows.......after all, this IS from a DURBAR



Jim, looking back I see that it was actually Oliver that initially mentioned that the armor was made from "elephant armor". Since this image appears to date back to the late 1800s I do not know how it would be from the 1903 Delhi durbar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
This photo is from a 1903 edition of National Geographic, commemorating the Delhi Durbar held in that year, which celebrated the accession of Edward VII. In the photo is a no-nonsense character in fanciful armor (some of it repurposed from an elephant armor)


The "coat of nails" that you mention is actually "chilta hazar masha"or "coat of a thousand nails" which is made up of layers of fabric faced with velvet and studded with numerous small brass nails, which were often gilded. The padded coat, minus its nails, is known for short as a chilta and was worn over armour or on its own. Fabric armour was very popular in India because metal became very hot under the Indian sun.
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Old 30th April 2016, 11:38 PM   #72
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estrch:

I was referring to an earlier comment by Oliver Pinchot about the elephant armor.

Incidentally, The Wide World Magazine is probably not the best source of factual and reliable information. A British monthly publication from 1898-1965, it was the perpetrator of a major hoax through the serial publication of "The Adventures of Louis de Rougement" who was supposed to have spent many years in outback Australia. When the magazine shut down, The Times of London described it as running mostly stories about "brave chaps with large moustaches on stiff upper lips, who did stupid and dangerous things." Not exactly National Geographic.

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Old 30th April 2016, 11:57 PM   #73
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Estrch,
Every time I see this pic I am always wondering: why should an executioner need a helmet, a shield and a heavily-spiked coat? Was he supposed to duel with the convicted person, and how was he supposed to strike with his humongous tegha without impaling his own arm?

I am sure it is a staged portrait to terrify British accountants and rosy-cheeked milkmaids:-)

" By Jove! 'ad it not been for 'is Majesty, these savages would 'ave eaten each other alive! Mistuh 'ennessy, I'll 'ave bangers and a pint of bittuh. Double quick."
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Old 1st May 2016, 12:25 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Estrch,
Every time I see this pic I am always wondering: why should an executioner need a helmet, a shield and a heavily-spiked coat? Was he supposed to duel with the convicted person, and how was he supposed to strike with his humongous tegha without impaling his own arm?


Ariel, armor is not necessarily for protection, it was probably part of the show, for the spectators of an event. if this man was actually an executioner then making him seen ferocious would make sense. I can not comment on the usefullness of the armor only that it appears to not be made from parts of an elephant armor as far as I can tell.

Armor was worn by some participants of durbars and other state events, I do not think it was necessary for protection in this case either, but the armor was real, just from a different (earlier) time period.

Bikaner soldiers wearing armor for the Prince of Wales visit to India in 1875-76.

These mail and plate shirts are from a large group of armor that was stored in the Bikaner armory in Rajastan, northern India. Maharaja Anup Singh (reigned 1669–98) was a general in the armies of the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb and led a series of campaigns in the Deccan in the 1680s and 1690s, including battles at Golconda in 1687 and Adoni in 1689. Dates on similar armors indicate that they taken as war trophys during one of the Deccan campaigns. In recent years some of these armors were sold off to dealers and have ended up in private and public collections.
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Old 1st May 2016, 12:30 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
The Wide World Magazine is probably not the best source of factual and reliable information.

Ian

Ian, I do not doubt that, but the image was published in The Wide World Magazine, 1898 so I am not sure how it could be claimed as an 1903 durbar image, one date is wrong.
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Old 1st May 2016, 01:49 AM   #76
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Estrch,

Might well be a Durbar-type costume: staged picture or theatrical costume.
Just like the Kora.
If they were connected in some capacity to the Durbar pageant, they would have antiquarian value; if not, they would be worth the cost of materials.

But still, admit it, the journalist mentioning Gilbert and Sullivan defined this costume very well:-)
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Old 1st May 2016, 06:05 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Estrch,

Might well be a Durbar-type costume: staged picture or theatrical costume.
Just like the Kora.
If they were connected in some capacity to the Durbar pageant, they would have antiquarian value; if not, they would be worth the cost of materials.

But still, admit it, the journalist mentioning Gilbert and Sullivan defined this costume very well:-)

Ariel, we would just be speculating, it could just as well be an older type of armor that has been re-purposed, when it comes to Indian armor and weapons you just never know, which is why I have an interest in them over lets say American civil war weapons. Here is a similar example, this spiked armor is said to be Siberian bear hunting armor...is it...could be, maybe not, without further info I can not comment further. Maybe the spiked Indian armor was originally used for hunting dangerous animals or some sort of blood sport between fighters, who can say for sure??

Quote:
The object is being called a Siberian bear-hunting suit,
but I suspect it is more likely to be for bear baiting than hunting,
since I can't imagine anyone could run around the woods in it. It
consists of leather pants and jacket (and an iron helmet) studded
all over with 1-inch iron nails about 3/4 in. apart. The nails are
held in place by a second layer of leather lining the whole thing
and quilted into place between the nails.
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Old 1st May 2016, 08:18 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
These mail and plate shirts are from a large group of armor that was stored in the Bikaner armory in Rajastan, northern India. Maharaja Anup Singh (reigned 1669–98) was a general in the armies of the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb and led a series of campaigns in the Deccan in the 1680s and 1690s, including battles at Golconda in 1687 and Adoni in 1689. Dates on similar armors indicate that they taken as war trophys during one of the Deccan campaigns. In recent years some of these armors were sold off to dealers and have ended up in private and public collections.


estcrh,
you notice in the picture we see the real weapons and armor. But we do not see the grotesque objects similar discussion to the sword (Kora)
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Old 1st May 2016, 01:03 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Here is a similar example, this spiked armor is said to be Siberian bear hunting armor...is it...could be, maybe not, without further info I can not comment further. Maybe the spiked Indian armor was originally used for hunting dangerous animals or some sort of blood sport between fighters, who can say for sure??


Now I know where the idea for the Pinhead from "Hellraiser" came from.

My son, who is a horror movie encyclopedia, also mentioned a Russian movie by some budding Fellini named Andrei Iskanov titled "Nails".
Seems hammering nails into the head might be a national Siberian pastime.
You know, a bottle of vodka, a pickle, some body piercing with 9 inch brights ... and off we go to get us a bear:-))))
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Old 1st May 2016, 01:54 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Now I know where the idea for the Pinhead from "Hellraiser" came from.

My son, who is a horror movie encyclopedia, also mentioned a Russian movie by some budding Fellini named Andrei Iskanov titled "Nails".
Seems hammering nails into the head might be a national Siberian pastime.
You know, a bottle of vodka, a pickle, some body piercing with 9 inch brights ... and off we go to get us a bear:-))))
There is a precedent for spikes being used against animals in India, there are examples of spiked doors being used to keep elephants from breaking them down and below is a picture of what is said to be a spiked ball used to hang in the door of elephant stables to keep the elephants from leaving. The "executioners armor" could have been originally for tiger hunting or fighting with wild animals, a known sport in some parts of India.
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Old 1st May 2016, 05:32 PM   #81
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You guys are cracking me up with all these photos of spiky things.
It seems that the prevailing wisdom here is that if we can prove that there really was were spiky armor (and walls and balls) in India at the time we can prove what, exactly, about the kora presented here???
I find it amazing that this image of the "High Executioner" in his spiked armor is creating so much controversy here.
FACT: This image of the "High Executioner" was indeed published in The Wide World Magazine edition of June, 1898. So i am sorry Oliver, your source for this photo is simply wrong. It may have been printed later in National Geographic and purported to be from the 1903 Delhi Durbar, but that information would be completely incorrect, barring the possibility of a time a traveling photographer . There is just no way that it could have been taken at the Delhi Durbar in 1903. Ariel started this whole Durbar red herring early on in this thread due to what i can only suspect was a misunderstanding of what was presented in Oliver's book and it has, IMVHO, squashed any real analysis of this kora ever since, becoming little more than a rematch for old adversaries to trade barbs and sarcasm. I have now looked at many very interesting photos of these Durbar spectacles and read all the offerings of speculation from all sides and have still not seen one single shred of evidence that could possibly link this kora to that historic event, either as a ceremonial weapon carried in processions or even as a cheap souvenir bought in one of the bazaars that would be surrounding a grand Durbar.
Look, i realize this is not an academic, scholarly forum, despite the fact that we do indeed have academics and scholars in our membership. But this whole Durbar thing is just and incredible flight of fancy as far as i can tell. Speculation is fine, but it needs some basis of justification. Instead we are spending our time debating a photo of a guy in a porcupine suit of armor and trying to connect it falsely to the Delhi Durbar as some kind of proof that this kora could still be a ceremonial weapon from the same Durbar that this executioner photo is NOT from because if it is (which it is NOT) then it somehow proves that cheap, decorative weapons might also be used in ceremonies at the Durbar??? Welcome to bizarre world.
Let me remind everyone of the what Oliver did write when he appeared briefly in this thread.
"Delhi Durbar weapons are usually very well made, but not always. Some were actually carried or worn to the Durbar itself by the nobility. Others were carried by lesser attendees. And still others were offered for sale to guests to commemorate their visit, either in the bazaars or hotels; the range of quality from one to the next is enormous."
"Durbar weapons are usually very well made..." It is amazing to me that some people could then latch onto the "but not always" and use that as some justification that this kora could possible be anything other than a wall hanger.
I must say that this thread has been very entertaining and in many ways informative, but i do feel that it has failed in it's obligation to inform the original poster anything of much use about the kora he brought forward for discussion.
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Old 1st May 2016, 06:10 PM   #82
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David, thank you for a reasonable words.
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Old 1st May 2016, 06:40 PM   #83
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David,
I think you are missing the point: nobody here claims that this Kora is anything but decorative.
The Durbars, especially the 1903 one were giant fairs, with real Rajas and their legitimate retinues , but also with vast logistical and commercial establishments and opportunities.
Here is a text from Wiki about Lord Curzon brilliant administrative achievements:
"The two full weeks of festivities were devised in meticulous detail by Lord Curzon.[5] It was a dazzling display of pomp, power and split second timing. Neither the earlier Delhi Durbar of 1877, nor the later Durbar held there in 1911, could match the pageantry of Lord Curzon’s 1903 festivities. In a few short months at the end of 1902, a deserted plain was transformed into an elaborate tented city, complete with temporary light railway to bring crowds of spectators out from Delhi, a post office with its own stamp, telephone and telegraphic facilities, a variety of stores, a Police force with specially designed uniform, hospital, magistrate’s court and complex sanitation, drainage and electric light installations. Souvenir guide books were sold and maps of the camping ground distributed. Marketing opportunities were craftily exploited. Special medals known as Delhi Durbar Medals, were struck, firework displays, exhibitions and glamorous dances held."

If we accept veracity of Oliver's information about the pattern of decorative work ( and I have no doubt he knows what he is talking about), as well as the inevitable range of quality, the plausibility of this Kora coming from the rock-bottom layer of the Durbar " marketing opportunities ...craftily exploited" becomes not far-fetched.
Not finding it among long-distance images of the throngs of participants and visitors is not an argument that it was not there ( or was not sold from some peripheral bazaar stand): I am certain that even some Rajas cannot be found on these "Where is Elmo?" photographs.

Once again: absense of evidence is not evidence of absense.


So the point is simple: yes, it is ceremonial, commemorative, theatrical, decorative, souvenir ( choose any definition). If it participated in the pageant or even sold as a souvenir there , it still has historical value. If not, it is just a clumsy piece of metal not worth much culturally, historically of financially.


The hooker is, we shall never know for certain.......
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Old 1st May 2016, 06:42 PM   #84
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The workmanship on the OP’s kora is typical of Indian decorative “weapons” sold over a period of many years. An illustrative group is from the section headed “Military Decorations” in the 1927 Francis Bannerman catalog.
A “Goorka knife” from the same source exhibits characteristic decoration and fanciful description.
Blades are invariably made from flat stock with minimal taper.

Compare the OPs "kora" with a genuine Indian sacrificial kora on Artzi's site:LINK
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Old 1st May 2016, 07:38 PM   #85
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Berkley, thank you ! Those are exactly the kukris I was thinking of which are so much like this kora. The BANNERMAN catalog!!! This seller of the early 20th century is an incredible source of so many collectable weapons of shall we say, more affordable stature, which permeated collections by the 50s and 60s. These were the early glory days of collecting where the arms we now can often only dream of owning were around in huge numbers, and very affordable.

This actually quite nicely puts this thread well back on track!
While we have had many fascinating and intriguing entries which digressed into many areas, they have been most informative, and again I thank Estcrh for this wealth of illustrations and data!

The nature of the kora originally posted here has been the point of contention, and while it remains unclear whether it was a 'souvenier' of a durbar or simply one hawked in bazaars at another time cannot be conclusively known.

It is important to realize that in assessing or categorizing weapons being studied or collected, often the term 'of the type' is used.

The term 'ceremonial' here has implied that a kora 'of this form and decoration might have been carried by a participant in the durbars.
While that may be plausible, it cannot be proven.
As Ariel has noted, and in citing Oliver's notes, there was certainly a distinct 'range' of quality in weapons used and otherwise available in these gala events. The quality of this particular example would be the best indicator of its place in that range, and how it may have been placed in the scope of a durbar.......if in fact related at all.

Ceremonial also describes the character of SIMILAR examples without this decoration and usually of sound quality used in sacrificial rituals in Bengal.
That description simply refers to the TYPE of sword, and not necessarily applicable to THIS sword in that sense. This is clearly not such a sword but something more embellished.
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Old 1st May 2016, 07:50 PM   #86
David
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I think you are missing the point: nobody here claims that this Kora is anything but decorative.

So the point is simple: yes, it is ceremonial, commemorative, theatrical, decorative, souvenir ( choose any definition). If it participated in the pageant or even sold as a souvenir there , it still has historical value. If not, it is just a clumsy piece of metal not worth much culturally, historically of financially.

No Ariel, i am not missing the point. And here you are contradicting yourself in a single post. You say "nobody is claiming this kora is anything but decorative" and then go right on to again make claim that it is "ceremonial" and "commemorative". Yes Ariel, you are claiming that it is more than just decorative. You just did now and you have consistently throughout this thread. And this has been a key point of the argument that has ensued.
No one has shown here that any pageants or ceremonies took place at a Durbar where a kora of this quality would have been used. Not in photographs or in written word about such Durbars. Your claim that the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is nothing more than double-speak in this context. IMO This type of informal fallacy doesn't really have much practical purpose in our field of study and discussion. Yes, i am quite familiar with the philosophical concept. For those who aren't you can read about it here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
However, in a case were a member comes to us seeking comments on a sword, while we are free to speculate, i believe we are obligated not to confuse the bejeezus out of him with completely unprovable flights of fancy.
Yes, we probably can never know for sure that this sword was not sold in a market at a Durbar, which, i suppose, would add something to its historical value. At the same time we certainly cannot say that it was, nor should we be giving its new owner the impression that this completely unprovable possibility can ever rightfully be presented in a description of this sword, especially when so many other possibilities exist.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 12:26 AM   #87
ariel
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David,
I think that continuing this dialogue is fruitless: we are in different dimensions. I am trying to tell you that I agree with what you are saying about the uncertainty, but you hear that I insist on some certainty. Perhaps, I do not explain myself well...

As to more outcomes for a situation with no evidence, there is alway a possibility in the future that such an evidence is going to announce itself: a sale receipt, collection record etc. Till then we are in a limbo. Rather a common situation in any research: the model was not good, the assay sensitivity sucked, the "n" was miscalculated in a power analysis.... As long as the evidence is theoretically obtainable, it will be obtained sooner or later.

You are right: it is not good to plant seeds of unjustified hope. Just as proclaiming that the case is hopeless. In the absense of firm evidence we can only guess. Statistically, chances are ~95% that you are right. Just let's not forget about those little nasty 5% that this Kora might have been sold for real as a memento of the Great Durbar:-) I have seen enough cases of mild bladder infection progressing into full renal failure, and just a week ago I had a long phone conversation with a good colleague of mine, a very well-known medical researcher who had been found to have inoperable pancreatic cancer about 20 years ago... At a ripe age of 80+ he had been charged by our Society to develop a certain policy, and I am his sidekick. He drives me hard:-)))



That is exactly how I wanted to present the case to the owner. If I phrased it badly, it's my fault. But the meaning was there.

With best wishes,
Ariel
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Old 2nd May 2016, 02:55 AM   #88
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It's nice that we found out that the discussed sword - it's just a souvenir.. And most likely produced in the early 20th century. And the distinguished Berkley provided evidence of this.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 04:22 AM   #89
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Very nicely explained Ariel, and nicely noted as well in accord Mahratt!!
Berkeley, beautifully done!!!
You deserve the Nobel Peace Prize here!!!!!!!
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