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Old 7th October 2011, 02:13 AM   #61
ganjawulung
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Default Palembang Pendokok

Close ups of the Palembang pendokoks, as requested by Detlef...

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Old 7th June 2014, 02:55 AM   #62
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Default Palembang Hilt and Sheath....

Dear Klungkung,

Just to remind again, that we had a long discussion about Palembang keris in this warung in the past. Just to complete the discussion of the topics raised by our pal, Klungkung ....

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Old 7th June 2014, 05:04 AM   #63
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Dear all,

Shocking pics about a damaged DURGA handle (never saw a similar with carvings, only the 'bare' ones !) after I tried to free it from the peksi with the heating method but I new I could not avoid it as the handle already had a severe lengthwise crack. After it got off I saw it was once repaired already with glue and 1 single nail!
I restored it the best I could with wood putty. The blade shipped to Java for cleaning as it has promising pamor.
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Old 7th June 2014, 06:29 AM   #64
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Default Lampung hilt....

Gosh,

Rarely seen Lampung keris handle has carved like that, Klungkung. Really have not seen before, a "putri malu" hilt (according to local people) such as this. Nice. Unfortunately, it cracked and broke down. But the fact that the damage can be repaired carefully, in order to recover such as never broke.

I happen to also have, Lampung carved keris handles. Even more fully carved, and the material is made of old ivory. It's just about the size of a patrem....

Ganjawulung
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Old 7th June 2014, 06:21 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Gosh,

Rarely seen Lampung keris handle has carved like that, Klungkung. Really have not seen before, a "putri malu" hilt (according to local people) such as this. Nice. Unfortunately, it cracked and broke down. But the fact that the damage can be repaired carefully, in order to recover such as never broke.

I happen to also have, Lampung carved keris handles. Even more fully carved, and the material is made of old ivory. It's just about the size of a patrem....

Ganjawulung


Is there a consensus that this type of "Durga" hilts specifically originates from Lampung and not Bengkulu or Palembang?
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Old 8th June 2014, 02:12 AM   #66
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Default Lampung or Bengkulu?

Dear Jean,

Among local people in Sumatra -- especially the Southern part of Sumatra -- there is no mention of such keris hilt as "durga hilt". You may traced yourself this fact there. It seems, the keris term of "durga hilt" comes from the West, from the author of articles and books on keris, Martin Kerner.

Among the keris people in Sumatra, whether it's in Palembang or other parts of southern Sumatra, they call this type of keris hilt as "putri malu" (shy princess). Is there a consensus, to refer to this type of Lampung hilt? Maybe so. Although there is also a kind of "putri malu" (with different body shape, a bit more twisted), known also as the keris hilt from Lahat, which borders the region of Bengkulu in the south western coast.

Clearly, if you look through the history of Sumatra, the most southern region of Sumatra's Lampung (old name in ancient times, Kedaton) is never separated from Palembang long history, and the history of the legendary kingdom of Sriwijaya. Traces of Sriwijaya was still being tracked.

However, the old Malay inscriptions have been found there, in Lampung. Yet, many of its languages ​​are not Malayan languages, but Lampungic comprise the group.

Ganjawulung

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Old 8th June 2014, 08:51 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Dear Jean,

Among local people in Sumatra -- especially the Southern part of Sumatra -- there is no mention of such keris hilt as "durga hilt". You may traced yourself this fact there. It seems, the keris term of "durga hilt" comes from the West, from the author of articles and books on keris, Martin Kerner.

Among the keris people in Sumatra, whether it's in Palembang or other parts of southern Sumatra, they call this type of keris hilt as "putri malu" (shy princess). Is there a consensus, to refer to this type of Lampung hilt? Maybe so. Although there is also a kind of "putri malu" (with different body shapes canting), known also as the keris hilt from Lahat, which borders the region of Bengkulu in the south western coast.

Clearly, if you look through the history of Sumatra, the most southern region of Sumatra's Lampung (old name in ancient times, Kedaton) is never separated from Palembang long history, and the history of the legendary kingdom of Sriwijaya. Traces of Sriwijaya was still being tracked.

However, the old Malay inscriptions have been found there, in Lampung. Yet, many of its languages ​​are not Malayan languages, but Lampungic comprise the group.

Ganjawulung


Pak Ganja,
Thanks for your reply. Other Western authors such as Karsten S. Jensen also attribute this type of hilt to Durga but he refers to Martin Kerner indeed (see book Keris-Griffe/ Museum Rietberg Zurich page 60).
Vanna Ghiringhelli attributes the origin of this hilt to Bengkulu but there may be various types indeed. Anyway let us adopt the name putri malu which seems more adequate!
Best regards
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Old 8th June 2014, 09:06 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Gosh,

Rarely seen Lampung keris handle has carved like that, Klungkung. Really have not seen before, a "putri malu" hilt (according to local people) such as this. Nice. Unfortunately, it cracked and broke down. But the fact that the damage can be repaired carefully, in order to recover such as never broke.

I happen to also have, Lampung carved keris handles. Even more fully carved, and the material is made of old ivory. It's just about the size of a patrem....

Ganjawulung


Beautiful putri malu hilt, thank you for sharing Pak Ganja!
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Old 8th June 2014, 09:39 AM   #69
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Default Putri Malu

Dear Jean and Sajen,

Yes, I also happened to ask this at friends in a facebook group, Sumatra group on keris and tosan aji. Friends of Palembang and Lampung, both confirmed this kind of hilt as "putri malu". And I happened to know any better, a native who is preparing a book on Lampung keris. He also confirmed this name of hilt as "putri malu"...

This specimen below, is according to him Lahat style of "putri malu". More "twisted" and has a specific form of "triangular" face. That's Lahat to him. (He was born in Lampung, and still finishing his book on Lampung Keris. Hopefully in the near future....)
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Old 8th June 2014, 10:47 AM   #70
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I was very interested to see references to a forthcoming book on Lampung keris. Could you give us the author's name, and the title of the book, so that we can look out for it when it is published, please? Presumably it will be announced on the forum when it appears? I look forward to seeing it.
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Old 8th June 2014, 12:13 PM   #71
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Default Lampung native

Dear Loedjoe,

I do not dare to say it now. To be sure, he focused his attention to researching the Sumatran keris, Palembang and mainly Lampung keris. Some times we discussed on Sumatran traditional weapon that is not less interesting, namely "Sumatran badik". Unfortunately, some beautiful specimens of Sumatran badiks can not be published in this special keris forum....

(Loedjoe, your name reminds me of a very peculiar name of the original sword of Aceh. A peculiar sword that has a very macho appearance, referred to locally as "loedjoe alang" or Luju Alang. Could see the distinctive shape of its hilt made of buffalo horn, which model is very typical. Aceh, is not only known for its rencong. However Aceh is also known of its sword, especially "Luju Alang". You may find the illustration of Luju Alang in "Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago" by Albert G van Zonneveld)
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Old 8th June 2014, 01:16 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by ganjawulung

However, the old Malay inscriptions have been found there, in Lampung. Yet, many of its languages ​​are not Malayan languages, but Lampungic comprise the group.

Ganjawulung


Dear Pak Ganja,

I also have an interest in this region, about which not so many information is available. So I found your last sentence very interesting; do you meen, there are languages of indigene groups, which do not belong to Malayo-Polynesian branch?

Could you please tell in short about these languages?

Regards,
Gustav
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Old 8th June 2014, 05:57 PM   #73
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Default Lampung language

Dear Gustav,

Unfortunately, I am not a linguist, Gustav. However, according to my Lampung origin friend, his research on keris also reach to local sources with KaGaNga texts. He also mentions, genesis original Lampung language spoken by "Ulun Lampung" ​​(indigenous Lampung peope), associated to Skalabrak ....

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Old 8th June 2014, 06:29 PM   #74
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Dear Pak Ganja,

thank you for taking your time to answer.

Regards,
Gustav
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Old 8th June 2014, 07:24 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Gosh,

I happen to also have, Lampung carved keris handles. Even more fully carved, and the material is made of old ivory. It's just about the size of a patrem....

Ganjawulung


Pak Ganja,
Very nice hilt indeed! Can you please show us the blade and warangka for reference?
Thanks and regards
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Old 8th June 2014, 08:55 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Jean
Pak Ganja,
Very nice hilt indeed! Can you please show us the blade and warangka for reference?
Thanks and regards


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=lampung
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Old 8th June 2014, 10:58 PM   #77
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Default Palembang Patrem

Dear Gustav and Jean,

Thank you Gustav, to remind my old post. At that time I was still searching for the name of that "Batman-like" hilt. Lately I just know, that people in Southern Sumatra used to call it "Putri Malu" (Shy Princess).

Jean, as in-reposting by Gustav, such that the appearance of my Palembang patrem (my Lampung friend even said it as "lampung patrem"), measuring only 20 cm.

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Old 9th June 2014, 10:07 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Dear Gustav and Jean,

Jean, as in-reposting by Gustav, such that the appearance of my Palembang patrem (my Lampung friend even said it as "lampung patrem"), measuring only 20 cm.

Ganjawulung


Pak Ganja and Gustav,
Thanks for the clearer pic. The blade is very rustic (no pamor, simple shape, ganja iras) as compared to the typical blades from the area. Also the sampir has a different and less elegant shape than the Palembang ones ("rudder" and notch at the back especially).
To my knowledge the standard krisses from Lampung are quite similar to the Palembang ones except the hilt, so are these features specific to one area in Lampung or these krisses made for specific persons? I have another kris patrem (blade 22 cm long) from South Sumatra with a putri malu hilt also but the blade is rather in bahari style.
Best regards
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Old 9th June 2014, 10:30 AM   #79
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Default Keris Minang dan Jambi

Dear Jean,

I was deliberately not too clean my "Lampung/Palembang" patrem. Because, according to friends - usually a much sought Sumatran keris, was made of pamorless iron. Lucky even if it turns out to be "malela iron", a favorite for this type of Sumatran keris. Keris Panjang of Jambi, for example, it is rare with pamor. Its blade, generally made of greenish gray iron. Also Anak Alang type, which are shorter in size.

Sumatran keris that you show to me, it's a nice keris to me. From the shape of its greneng, seems typical Minang keris. It has slightly different greneng (Sorry, to use the Javanes term, I forgot the Sumatran term....) if you compare with those of Riau, or Jambi kerises. I have an example, the blades of Riau, or Jambi. Note the difference in 'greneng' part....

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Old 9th June 2014, 12:19 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Dear Jean,

Sumatran keris that you show to me, it's a nice keris to me. From the shape of its greneng, seems typical Minang keris. It has slightly different greneng (Sorry, to use the Javanes term, I forgot the Sumatran term....) if you compare with those of Riau, or Jambi kerises. I have an example, the blades of Riau, or Jambi. Note the difference in 'greneng' part....

Ganjawulung


Pak Ganja,
I find your kris very nice, especially the carved JD hilt.
Ouch, a Minang blade with South Sumatra dress?
Thanks and regards
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Old 9th June 2014, 02:32 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Jean
Other Western authors such as Karsten S. Jensen also attribute this type of hilt to Durga but he refers to Martin Kerner indeed (see book Keris-Griffe/ Museum Rietberg Zurich page 60).
Vanna Ghiringhelli attributes the origin of this hilt to Bengkulu but there may be various types indeed. Anyway let us adopt the name putri malu which seems more adequate!

I agree that the name "Durga hilt" should be retired. With all due respect to Jensen and Kerner, i do not believe either of these gentlemen have ever presented any solid evidence that these hilts were ever meant to represent Durga and continuing to refer to them as such is only a misdirection for any further research and understanding of the form. While this is the first time i have heard the term "putri malu", it does at least seem to be coming from a source(s) within the culture as opposed to without and will probably serve us better, at least for the time being.
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Old 12th June 2014, 08:08 AM   #82
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Dear ganjawulung

Many thanks for your response. Let us know when you are able to give details of the book - it sounds as though it will be of great interest, and I would also like to add it to my bibliography of Indonesian weapons, eventually.

Loedjoe was chosen as a forum name, from loedjoe alang, simply as one of my favourite types of Sumatran weapon - but very difficult to find examples of it available!

Best wishes, Loedjoe
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Old 12th June 2014, 12:35 PM   #83
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Default Luju Alang

Dear Loedjoe,

I guess your name is already there must be a relationship with Loedjoe Alang. It's the same. I also really liked Loedjoe Alang, and I'm lucky I got two pieces of loedjoes, both blades without a flaw. And incidentally both wearing different hulu or hilt. The one type of "hulu rumpung" (more simple type), the other one "hulu lunkee rusa" type. Exactly similar with the two examples in the book "Traditional Weapons" of Zonneveld. Unfortunately, I can not upload here ...

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Old 13th June 2014, 06:45 PM   #84
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Dear Ganjawulung

Wonderful that you have two examples of this rare type; I particularly like the "hulu lunkee rusa" one in Van Zonneveld.

Best wishes, Loedjoe
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Old 14th June 2014, 04:32 AM   #85
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Default Hulu "luday"...

Dear Jean, Gustav, Sajen and Loedjoe,

One more example of a Lampung keris hilt, they commonly refer to as "hulu luday" (luday hilt). Not only on the keris hilt alone, there are ornaments of "luday" or a kind of snake - which, according to Lampung traditional belief - just living only in the deep river bottom. But also be decorated in traditional houses of Lampung poles. It is small serpent, but according to the myth, can turn into a big snake. Some call it, "luday" is the origin of symbolization "local naga" of Sumatra.

Magical creatures "luday" also exist in Palembang keris hilts. At first glance a bird-like figure. But actually it is snake figure. May be differed from the description of the creature's eyes.

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Old 14th June 2014, 04:46 AM   #86
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Dear David,

Thank you for the recommendation about the "Putri Malu" hilt. Hopefully not considered to negate the knowledge that has long been believed. I'm just trying to express some new idea I got from the original Lampung and Palembang people I know.

Thank you David,
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Old 14th June 2014, 08:29 AM   #87
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Thank you very much for the new information, both about putri malu, and the hulu luday - very interesting.
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Old 14th June 2014, 10:07 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Dear Jean, Gustav, Sajen and Loedjoe,

One more example of a Lampung keris hilt, they commonly refer to as "hulu luday" (luday hilt). Not only on the keris hilt alone, there are ornaments of "luday" or a kind of snake - which, according to Lampung traditional belief - just living only in the deep river bottom. But also be decorated in traditional houses of Lampung poles. It is small serpent, but according to the myth, can turn into a big snake. Some call it, "luday" is the origin of symbolization "local naga" of Sumatra.

Magical creatures "luday" also exist in Palembang keris hilts. At first glance a bird-like figure. But actually it is snake figure. May be differed from the description of the creature's eyes.

Ganjawulung


Dear Pak Ganja,
Thank you again for the very interesting and new information from the local sources!
I am frankly surprised to learn that this type of hilt originates from Lampung and not Palembang, especially the specimen on the left which has an identical style of fine & deep carving as the small JD hilts from Palembang? And what about the origin of the variant types shown by Moshah in post #15 and Sajen in posts #27, 28, and 30? I am showing 2 more pieces just for reference.
Best regards
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Old 14th June 2014, 01:17 PM   #89
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Default Yes, Lampung and Palembang....

Dear Jean,

Thank you, Jean, for the correction. You are correct, that the "wearing crested" hilt is called "hulu burung", a Palembang hilt. Not "hulu luday" from Lampung or serpent hilt. The non-crested hilt, it is called " hulu luday". I've asked my Palembang friend, and he said the Palembang one is simply called "hulu burung". While it is true that "hulu luday" is Lampung hilt.

The difference that can be observed from the second hilt, in addition to the crested, also in his eyes. That "hulu luday" is more like a serpent's eyes, rather than a bird's eye ....

Once again, thank you for the correction. Hopefully Shahrial Alamshah will add more information on this Palembang and Lampung hilts...

Ganjawulung
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