Small Dha and a Question About Ivory

derek · 31st March 2005, 03:23 AM

I got this dha recently and the work is as fine as some much older looking examples I have, but the ivory is much whiter. See pics below for comparison.
This prompts the question: Is there a way to generally determine the age of ivory by the color? Does this vary greatly in different types of ivory, and can external conditions seriously affect the rate that color change occurs?

Andrew · 31st March 2005, 04:06 AM

Hi Derek. I believe what you have there is a recently made dha hmyaung, likely produced by Karen or Shan tribesmen. The green baldric seems to be the color of choice for similar swords and knives.

The bottom knife looks significantly older, and not just in the color of the ivory. The silver wire work and sheeting is generally heavier on these, and the blades are often quite good, many exibiting the forge-folding or stacked laminate construction and differentially hardened edges of their sword sized relations.

As for the ivory, I'll defer to others more experienced than I. I do recall, however, that different types of ivory will age differently.

Best,
Andrew

VANDOO · 31st March 2005, 04:25 AM

TO BE ABLE TO GUESS APPROXIMATE AGE FROM THE AMOUNT OF PATINATION ON IVORY IS VERY DIFFICULT EVEN WITH YEARS OF EXPERIENCE. IVORY CAN ALSO BE STAINED AND ANTIQUED BY SOAKING IT IN VARIOUS CONCOCTIONS WHICH IS EASIER TO DETECT IF YOU HAVE SEEN IT DONE OR SEEN SEVERAL ITEMS PERSONALLY. LONG EXPOSURE TO THE SUN AND DRY AREAS WILL TEND TO BLEACH AND CRACK IVORY AND A CHALKY LAYER WILL FORM ON THE OUTSIDE. IVORY THAT HAS BEEN BURIED IN THE GROUND "A COMMON PRACTICE IN AFRICA" TENDS TO DARKEN DEPENDING ON SOIL TYPE, THE MOISTURE IN THE AREA AND THE AMOUNT OF TIME BURRIED. IVORY WAS CACHED AND BURIED AND LEFT WHILE THEY PURSUED MORE ELEPHANTS AND CARRIED OUT LATER. THE OILS IN HUMAN SKIN CAUSE THE IVORY TO GET THE YELLOWISH AND LATER NICE ORANGE PATINA COMMON ON OLD IVORY BRACELETS AND KNIFE HANDLES. I SUSPECT CONTACT WITH BLOOD OR ANIMAL GREASE WOULD ALSO STAIN IVORY. VARIOUS IVORYS MAY PATINATE AT DIFFERENT RATES OR ATTAIN DIFFERENT COLORS BUT I CAN'T HELP THERE AS MY KNOWLEGE IS LIMITED.
THERE ARE SOME OLD POSTS ON IVORY AND BOOKS ON IVORY YOU MIGHT SEARCH FOR. GOOD LUCK

Ian · 31st March 2005, 08:00 PM

Derek:

I echo the comments of Andrew and Vandoo that it is hard to judge the age of ivory by its color, although there are other tell tale signs of wear that MAY reflect age (or at least frequent handling). Andrew has alluded to oils from skin, etc., and these can color the ivory, but they also attract dirt and grime which works its way into ivory cracks and other out of the way places. Some of this "dirt" is quite persistent and resists cleaning. You can see evidence of this effect in the fine cracks in the ivory of your bottom example and at the junction of the silver ferrule and ivory handle. I think these features often tell us more about age and use than the color of the ivory itself.

Ian.

Battara · 31st March 2005, 10:16 PM

I also agree and add that in the presence of sulfur or sulfer oxides, the ivory will darken quicker and in an orange to brown hue.

Battara · 31st March 2005, 10:18 PM

I also agree and add that in the presence of sulfur or sulfer oxides, the ivory will darken quicker and in an orange to brown hue. Although it takes time for this to occur, it tricks the timeline for age, making some ivories appear older than they are. The other factors already mentioned must be added into the formula.

31st March 2005, 03:23 AM	#1
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Small Dha and a Question About Ivory I got this dha recently and the work is as fine as some much older looking examples I have, but the ivory is much whiter. See pics below for comparison. This prompts the question: Is there a way to generally determine the age of ivory by the color? Does this vary greatly in different types of ivory, and can external conditions seriously affect the rate that color change occurs?

31st March 2005, 04:06 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Derek. I believe what you have there is a recently made dha hmyaung, likely produced by Karen or Shan tribesmen. The green baldric seems to be the color of choice for similar swords and knives. The bottom knife looks significantly older, and not just in the color of the ivory. The silver wire work and sheeting is generally heavier on these, and the blades are often quite good, many exibiting the forge-folding or stacked laminate construction and differentially hardened edges of their sword sized relations. As for the ivory, I'll defer to others more experienced than I. I do recall, however, that different types of ivory will age differently. Best, Andrew

31st March 2005, 04:25 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TO BE ABLE TO GUESS APPROXIMATE AGE FROM THE AMOUNT OF PATINATION ON IVORY IS VERY DIFFICULT EVEN WITH YEARS OF EXPERIENCE. IVORY CAN ALSO BE STAINED AND ANTIQUED BY SOAKING IT IN VARIOUS CONCOCTIONS WHICH IS EASIER TO DETECT IF YOU HAVE SEEN IT DONE OR SEEN SEVERAL ITEMS PERSONALLY. LONG EXPOSURE TO THE SUN AND DRY AREAS WILL TEND TO BLEACH AND CRACK IVORY AND A CHALKY LAYER WILL FORM ON THE OUTSIDE. IVORY THAT HAS BEEN BURIED IN THE GROUND "A COMMON PRACTICE IN AFRICA" TENDS TO DARKEN DEPENDING ON SOIL TYPE, THE MOISTURE IN THE AREA AND THE AMOUNT OF TIME BURRIED. IVORY WAS CACHED AND BURIED AND LEFT WHILE THEY PURSUED MORE ELEPHANTS AND CARRIED OUT LATER. THE OILS IN HUMAN SKIN CAUSE THE IVORY TO GET THE YELLOWISH AND LATER NICE ORANGE PATINA COMMON ON OLD IVORY BRACELETS AND KNIFE HANDLES. I SUSPECT CONTACT WITH BLOOD OR ANIMAL GREASE WOULD ALSO STAIN IVORY. VARIOUS IVORYS MAY PATINATE AT DIFFERENT RATES OR ATTAIN DIFFERENT COLORS BUT I CAN'T HELP THERE AS MY KNOWLEGE IS LIMITED. THERE ARE SOME OLD POSTS ON IVORY AND BOOKS ON IVORY YOU MIGHT SEARCH FOR. GOOD LUCK

31st March 2005, 08:00 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,037	Derek: I echo the comments of Andrew and Vandoo that it is hard to judge the age of ivory by its color, although there are other tell tale signs of wear that MAY reflect age (or at least frequent handling). Andrew has alluded to oils from skin, etc., and these can color the ivory, but they also attract dirt and grime which works its way into ivory cracks and other out of the way places. Some of this "dirt" is quite persistent and resists cleaning. You can see evidence of this effect in the fine cracks in the ivory of your bottom example and at the junction of the silver ferrule and ivory handle. I think these features often tell us more about age and use than the color of the ivory itself. Ian.

31st March 2005, 10:16 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I also agree and add that in the presence of sulfur or sulfer oxides, the ivory will darken quicker and in an orange to brown hue.

31st March 2005, 10:18 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I also agree and add that in the presence of sulfur or sulfer oxides, the ivory will darken quicker and in an orange to brown hue. Although it takes time for this to occur, it tricks the timeline for age, making some ivories appear older than they are. The other factors already mentioned must be added into the formula.