Decoration on Indian hilts

Jens Nordlunde · 12th June 2005, 04:26 PM

The decoration of the hilt shown is a bit different from decorations shown on most hilts. The small flowers are the same on both sides of the hilt, but the two big flowers seem to be shown from the front and the back. In most cases the flowers are shown from the front, but not on this hilt. We can wonder why the artist has chosen to show the flowers like that, but it will be pure guessing, as very little is known about the floral decorations and their meaning. Maybe in the years ahead some old Indian books will be translated giving the symbolic meaning of the flowers shown on the hilts, but until then we are left to guess. I have discussed the flowers with another member on this forum, who is a botanist. It was a very interesting discussion, although he completely spoiled my optimism, when it came to put names to the different flowers, there were too few or too many petals, the leaf did not fit that special flower, and a lot of other things – but it was interesting, so now I will find a book ‘Botanic for dummies’ to learn more about the different plant families and the plants. One thing we must not forget is, that whatever religion the Indians had at the time, their roots went back to other religions, not quite forgotten – like in all other places. The symbolic meaning of the decoration might have been forgotten over the years, but not the fact that sword hilts should be decorated in a special way.

I know that many of you must have interesting hilts to show, please do, and tell what you know about them.

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2005, 04:29 PM

Different from most! I should say so.Tim

Rick · 12th June 2005, 06:22 PM

That is most fascinating Jens . When the sword is held in the right hand the flowers face out from the palm of the hand .

If one was holding the flowers themselves this way ........ (thought trails off) .... but it is like one 'is' wielding the flower itself , meaning (possibly) that the flower is a talisman , not simply decoration .

Have I made any sense ?

Or just a fool of myself .

Jens Nordlunde · 12th June 2005, 09:40 PM

Rick, you are right on target if you ask me, the only problem for me is to find out what it means - still searching

.

Best Jens

Jim McDougall · 13th June 2005, 04:18 AM

Hi Jens,
As always, fantastic photos of beautiful weapons!!!! and this a topic that really needs research. I also think Rick is right on target, there is much more to the decorative motif on these weapons than just 'pretty flowers'. Much in the same way as many markings and symbolic motif on the blades of weapons, I strongly believe there are talismanic and amuletic values imbued in the decoration. It is known that flowers and various botanical forms carry important symbolism in the religion and superstitions of many cultural spheres, and we can but speculate on the possibility of intended meaning or value carried. Still, by viewing various hilts and associating the botanical motif categorically we might be able to work toward some plausible ideas on such possibilities.

Robert Elgood's new book on "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is one of the first books on arms and armour to subjectively discuss the anthropological perspective on weapons and as I have previously noted, to study ethnographic weapons in an effective manner. We already know the importance of botanicals in the smelting of wootz, now we must consider similarly thier importance aesthetically in the decoration of these weapons.

I am still puzzled by the depiction of lotuses with varying numbers of petals...it seems in Buddhism eight petals are particularly auspicious, but it seems some are depicted with less. Would Hindu interpretation of a lotus be with less petals? Also the chrysanthemum, which I always thought was Japanese...are these also part of the themes on tulwars?

I know you guys have lots of tulwars out there!!! Lets see the hilts....both from the side and the top view of the pommel .

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 13th June 2005, 02:16 PM

Thanks for the answers.
To show you what I mean you can have a look at this picture, it is not from a hilt, but from a blade, and it is of course a lotus.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th June 2005, 04:19 PM

Hi Jim,

Hendley, in Jaypore Enamels comments unfortunately only very sporatic about the flower decorations. He mentions some of the flowers used for decoration, like lotus, chrysanthemum Indicum, lily, rose, poppy and a few others, but he does not write anything about the meaning.

B.I · 14th June 2005, 06:40 PM

jens' quest for the source and history of indian decoration is ever going and commendable. its an uphill battle that he continues to fight and i think we are all guilty of 'leaving him to it'. he is right in that the answers may be out there waiting for someone to stumble across them, or put the data known and as yet uncovered into the correct order and yield a plausable answer. hendley showed a personal interest in indian decoration, but his taste was the art of the day, and not antiquaty and so, although he may have been in the position to find out at the time, he stayed with the current arts and so his books tell a very 19thC story.
i have always veered away from symbolism as its never been my chosen route for knowledge. jens 'botany' quest may indeed show some answers, and i will be the first to crack open a bottle. my route has always been iconography in comparative arts, which is a lifetimes study in itself.
however, i'd like to steer off on a slight tangent from jens post, in order to open up another possible avenue which i've have been looking into.
the decorative art of rangoli is still alive in india and abundant in folk festivals and folk art. the word itself - 'Rangoli' is a sanskrit word which means a creative expression of art through the use of color. this art, of hindu origin, has adorned buildings, banners and textiles for many centuries. the moghuls, in their very 'modern' attitude incorporated hindu art into their own and you tend to find much hindu influence in moghul architecture.
i've attached an image od rangoli designs, which some may find familiar. note, the second row, third from left. this design is apparant on many 19thC pommels. then there is the 'tuban ornament' design etc.
as fashion tended to dictate a period in time, i thought that to trace back rangoli designs may attempt to pry out some answers. what i've always looked for is a way to verify and benchmark a date. architecture is one of the most reliable sources and there are a few (myself included) that have been looking into this for some time. maybe rangloi designs were dictated by a fashion trend and if this design did get incorporated into weapon design, there is a chance a connection can be made. the islamic world has been edging this way for many years and a weapon shows the same influence in decoration as a ewer.
something to chew over.
btw, unfortunately, the illustration i've attached infuriatingly has no description for the individual designs. i think that would be too easy

Jens Nordlunde · 15th June 2005, 02:13 PM

[img]file:///C:/WIN98SE/TEMP/moz-screenshot.jpg[/img] BI, thank you for the hint, it is most interesting, and I recognise several of the drawings from the tulwar discs.

Rangoli also known as Kolam in South India, Chowkpurana in North India, Madana in Rajasthan, Aripana in Bihar, Alpana in Bengal and by other names in other parts of India, it is the ancient Hindu religious floor art made by the women, and learned from generation to generation. Rangoli/Kolam/Alpana/…. Looks different in the different Indian States, using flour, henna, and petals from various flowers such as oleanders, cosmos, zenia, chrysanthemums, and green leaves which provide the artist the ability to work out various patterns and colours. It is mostly made in geometrical patterns, but can also be made as temples or animals. In some parts of India it is still used daily, being made very early in the morning and being swept away in the evening, but to day it is mostly used at big celebrations.

To make the picture of the hilt complete I should also have shown the upper and lower part of the disc – here are the pictures.

Rick · 15th June 2005, 03:08 PM

Hi Jens , B.I. ,

A possible avenue to explore in the area of interpretation of floral and other Indian decoration may be to study the art of Mehndi in some depth .

This art continues as we all know into the present and possibly meanings and or talismanic interpretations may be found there with a little digging .

Just a thought .

Rick

B.I · 15th June 2005, 03:52 PM

hi rick,
i agree that all aspects of indian art should be thought about, but also feel that there must be a historical benchmark found. as the art of body painting can only be an oral or stylistic transgression, the design taken from current (relatively) trends, it would be hard to use this in dating old weapons, past the 19thC.
my rangoli route is much the same, except that the rangoli designs do appear in old architecture. if they were painted using the style of the time, and we can narrow this time down to decades, as apposed the the 'centuries' normally associated with indian dating, then we can try and transpose this dating into similar styles on other aspects of art ie. weapon decoration.
its all a little loose but these are desperate times :-)
unless we can find a 300 year old body, preserved with its henna tattooing of course

B.I · 15th June 2005, 03:53 PM

btw,
nice photography jens

Jens Nordlunde · 15th June 2005, 04:50 PM

Hi Rick, I think you must have been browsing, but you are right, the different patterns most likely have been unchanged for centuries, and this is very interesting as the same goes for architecture, textiles, pottery, wood cuts and many other forms of decoration – our only problem is to understand the meaning – and we do fail in this respect.

Hi BI, Maybe Ann will ‘bring’ us such a decorated body, or maybe she even knows of one, I would not be surprised. Thanks for the comment on the pictures.

Ann do you know of such a body?

Rick · 15th June 2005, 05:12 PM

Hi Jens , I was not browsing , my Wife does a little of this art and has a few books that cover many many designs .

12th June 2005, 04:26 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Decoration on Indian hilts The decoration of the hilt shown is a bit different from decorations shown on most hilts. The small flowers are the same on both sides of the hilt, but the two big flowers seem to be shown from the front and the back. In most cases the flowers are shown from the front, but not on this hilt. We can wonder why the artist has chosen to show the flowers like that, but it will be pure guessing, as very little is known about the floral decorations and their meaning. Maybe in the years ahead some old Indian books will be translated giving the symbolic meaning of the flowers shown on the hilts, but until then we are left to guess. I have discussed the flowers with another member on this forum, who is a botanist. It was a very interesting discussion, although he completely spoiled my optimism, when it came to put names to the different flowers, there were too few or too many petals, the leaf did not fit that special flower, and a lot of other things – but it was interesting, so now I will find a book ‘Botanic for dummies’ to learn more about the different plant families and the plants. One thing we must not forget is, that whatever religion the Indians had at the time, their roots went back to other religions, not quite forgotten – like in all other places. The symbolic meaning of the decoration might have been forgotten over the years, but not the fact that sword hilts should be decorated in a special way. I know that many of you must have interesting hilts to show, please do, and tell what you know about them. Attached Images

12th June 2005, 09:40 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Rick, you are right on target if you ask me, the only problem for me is to find out what it means - still searching. Best Jens

13th June 2005, 02:16 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Thanks for the answers. To show you what I mean you can have a look at this picture, it is not from a hilt, but from a blade, and it is of course a lotus. Attached Images

14th June 2005, 06:40 PM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	jens' quest for the source and history of indian decoration is ever going and commendable. its an uphill battle that he continues to fight and i think we are all guilty of 'leaving him to it'. he is right in that the answers may be out there waiting for someone to stumble across them, or put the data known and as yet uncovered into the correct order and yield a plausable answer. hendley showed a personal interest in indian decoration, but his taste was the art of the day, and not antiquaty and so, although he may have been in the position to find out at the time, he stayed with the current arts and so his books tell a very 19thC story. i have always veered away from symbolism as its never been my chosen route for knowledge. jens 'botany' quest may indeed show some answers, and i will be the first to crack open a bottle. my route has always been iconography in comparative arts, which is a lifetimes study in itself. however, i'd like to steer off on a slight tangent from jens post, in order to open up another possible avenue which i've have been looking into. the decorative art of rangoli is still alive in india and abundant in folk festivals and folk art. the word itself - 'Rangoli' is a sanskrit word which means a creative expression of art through the use of color. this art, of hindu origin, has adorned buildings, banners and textiles for many centuries. the moghuls, in their very 'modern' attitude incorporated hindu art into their own and you tend to find much hindu influence in moghul architecture. i've attached an image od rangoli designs, which some may find familiar. note, the second row, third from left. this design is apparant on many 19thC pommels. then there is the 'tuban ornament' design etc. as fashion tended to dictate a period in time, i thought that to trace back rangoli designs may attempt to pry out some answers. what i've always looked for is a way to verify and benchmark a date. architecture is one of the most reliable sources and there are a few (myself included) that have been looking into this for some time. maybe rangloi designs were dictated by a fashion trend and if this design did get incorporated into weapon design, there is a chance a connection can be made. the islamic world has been edging this way for many years and a weapon shows the same influence in decoration as a ewer. something to chew over. btw, unfortunately, the illustration i've attached infuriatingly has no description for the individual designs. i think that would be too easy Attached Images

15th June 2005, 02:13 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	[img]file:///C:/WIN98SE/TEMP/moz-screenshot.jpg[/img] BI, thank you for the hint, it is most interesting, and I recognise several of the drawings from the tulwar discs. Rangoli also known as Kolam in South India, Chowkpurana in North India, Madana in Rajasthan, Aripana in Bihar, Alpana in Bengal and by other names in other parts of India, it is the ancient Hindu religious floor art made by the women, and learned from generation to generation. Rangoli/Kolam/Alpana/…. Looks different in the different Indian States, using flour, henna, and petals from various flowers such as oleanders, cosmos, zenia, chrysanthemums, and green leaves which provide the artist the ability to work out various patterns and colours. It is mostly made in geometrical patterns, but can also be made as temples or animals. In some parts of India it is still used daily, being made very early in the morning and being swept away in the evening, but to day it is mostly used at big celebrations. To make the picture of the hilt complete I should also have shown the upper and lower part of the disc – here are the pictures. Attached Images

12th June 2005, 04:29 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Different from most! I should say so.Tim

12th June 2005, 06:22 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	That is most fascinating Jens . When the sword is held in the right hand the flowers face out from the palm of the hand . If one was holding the flowers themselves this way ........ (thought trails off) .... but it is like one 'is' wielding the flower itself , meaning (possibly) that the flower is a talisman , not simply decoration . Have I made any sense ? Or just a fool of myself .

13th June 2005, 04:18 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	Hi Jens, As always, fantastic photos of beautiful weapons!!!! and this a topic that really needs research. I also think Rick is right on target, there is much more to the decorative motif on these weapons than just 'pretty flowers'. Much in the same way as many markings and symbolic motif on the blades of weapons, I strongly believe there are talismanic and amuletic values imbued in the decoration. It is known that flowers and various botanical forms carry important symbolism in the religion and superstitions of many cultural spheres, and we can but speculate on the possibility of intended meaning or value carried. Still, by viewing various hilts and associating the botanical motif categorically we might be able to work toward some plausible ideas on such possibilities. Robert Elgood's new book on "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is one of the first books on arms and armour to subjectively discuss the anthropological perspective on weapons and as I have previously noted, to study ethnographic weapons in an effective manner. We already know the importance of botanicals in the smelting of wootz, now we must consider similarly thier importance aesthetically in the decoration of these weapons. I am still puzzled by the depiction of lotuses with varying numbers of petals...it seems in Buddhism eight petals are particularly auspicious, but it seems some are depicted with less. Would Hindu interpretation of a lotus be with less petals? Also the chrysanthemum, which I always thought was Japanese...are these also part of the themes on tulwars? I know you guys have lots of tulwars out there!!! Lets see the hilts....both from the side and the top view of the pommel . All the best, Jim

13th June 2005, 04:19 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Jim, Hendley, in Jaypore Enamels comments unfortunately only very sporatic about the flower decorations. He mentions some of the flowers used for decoration, like lotus, chrysanthemum Indicum, lily, rose, poppy and a few others, but he does not write anything about the meaning.

15th June 2005, 03:08 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	Hi Jens , B.I. , A possible avenue to explore in the area of interpretation of floral and other Indian decoration may be to study the art of Mehndi in some depth . This art continues as we all know into the present and possibly meanings and or talismanic interpretations may be found there with a little digging . Just a thought . Rick

15th June 2005, 03:52 PM	#11
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi rick, i agree that all aspects of indian art should be thought about, but also feel that there must be a historical benchmark found. as the art of body painting can only be an oral or stylistic transgression, the design taken from current (relatively) trends, it would be hard to use this in dating old weapons, past the 19thC. my rangoli route is much the same, except that the rangoli designs do appear in old architecture. if they were painted using the style of the time, and we can narrow this time down to decades, as apposed the the 'centuries' normally associated with indian dating, then we can try and transpose this dating into similar styles on other aspects of art ie. weapon decoration. its all a little loose but these are desperate times :-) unless we can find a 300 year old body, preserved with its henna tattooing of course

15th June 2005, 03:53 PM	#12
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	btw, nice photography jens

15th June 2005, 04:50 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hi Rick, I think you must have been browsing, but you are right, the different patterns most likely have been unchanged for centuries, and this is very interesting as the same goes for architecture, textiles, pottery, wood cuts and many other forms of decoration – our only problem is to understand the meaning – and we do fail in this respect. Hi BI, Maybe Ann will ‘bring’ us such a decorated body, or maybe she even knows of one, I would not be surprised. Thanks for the comment on the pictures. Ann do you know of such a body?

15th June 2005, 05:12 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	Hi Jens , I was not browsing , my Wife does a little of this art and has a few books that cover many many designs .