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Old 20th December 2005, 11:54 AM   #1
Alam Shah
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Default Features of this keris.

The pointed top end at the sides, are these Pudak Sategal?
Normally on a Dapur Pandawa Karno Tinanding blade, there is a pair of lis-lisan but this blade seems to have Pudak Sategal instead.
I wanted to confirm this feature. Please assist.

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Old 20th December 2005, 01:13 PM   #2
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Yep, that's what i'd call 'em. But then, what do i know?
BTW, nice modern keris craft, that.
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Old 20th December 2005, 02:43 PM   #3
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Hello,

One thing strikes me about this kind of keris: I can draw a parallel to architecture, specifically Rayonnant Gothic architecture. Each element of the ricikan, from greneng to to gajah and memet, is so highly defined and almost exagerated in the portrayal of its function. They're both organic.
Just wanted to share this thought.
Regards,
Manolo
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Old 21st December 2005, 04:40 AM   #4
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A fascinating modern keris version. I am attracted by it and yet confused by it. IN the same vein as Manolo, it's like sculpture. Could this be a new evolution of the keris? Could this be the start of a new keris tradition?
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Old 21st December 2005, 07:14 AM   #5
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Manolo, good observation. It's like a 'champion' model of the swiss army knife, where there are many features...on this one.

Quote:
Battara: Could this be a new evolution of the keris
Battara, possibly it may. I'm not surprised if in the future, perhaps you can order a piece with features that you like, a custom-made piece.

Nechesh, modern it is. But 'internally' does not necessarily be 'empty'.

What I'm wondering is, with Pudak Setegal, can this keris dapur still be called
Dapur Pandawa Karno Tinanding or instead
Dapur Pandawa Karno Tinanding Pudak Sategal or
something else altogether?
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Old 21st December 2005, 08:21 AM   #6
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I guess this is how new catagories of things (keris) start.
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Old 21st December 2005, 03:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alam Shah
Nechesh, modern it is. But 'internally' does not necessarily be 'empty'.

What I'm wondering is, with Pudak Setegal, can this keris dapur still be called
Dapur Pandawa Karno Tinanding or instead
Dapur Pandawa Karno Tinanding Pudak Sategal or
something else altogether?


Sorry Alam Shah, i am not quite sure what you mean by this first statement. Did i somehow imply i thought this keris to be "empty". Personally, i quite like the blade.
As to what to call it, i new name might be in order. Certainly to tack Pudak Sategal on the end does tell the story.
As to whether in the future one could order a keris with custom made features, wasn't this, to some extent, always the case in the past. There were, of course, restrictions on class and hierarchy, but wouldn't a client tell the empu or pande what he wanted in his keris, what he needed in his life and wouldn't that dictate the dapor and pamor he would receive. These days we are not held to the same cultural constricts of the past so i think keris design may continue to get a bit more "experimental". It could indeed prove to be a rennisance (spl?) of the art if collectors become more open to adding modern keris to their collections.
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Old 21st December 2005, 04:32 PM   #8
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Default custom-made keris & reason for collecting keris...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
As to whether in the future one could order a keris with custom made features, wasn't this, to some extent, always the case in the past. There were, of course, restrictions on class and hierarchy, but wouldn't a client tell the empu or pande what he wanted in his keris, what he needed in his life and wouldn't that dictate the dapor and pamor he would receive.
In the past, the maker decides the features, not the client (in most cases, i think).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
These days we are not held to the same cultural constricts of the past so i think keris design may continue to get a bit more "experimental". It could indeed prove to be a renaissance (spl=ok) of the art if collectors become more open to adding modern keris to their collections.
This question would pop-up. What is the purpose of collecting keris?
For art, culture, heritage, spiritual elements, antique, investment, fun(?)...etc?

It's fine with me, I'll collect as long as it appeals to me.
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Old 21st December 2005, 05:28 PM   #9
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Hello Alam Shah and all Kerislovers,

i don`t want to make you angry but there must be some critics! But first of all i want to say according to my textbook with drawings of 1920 of the Keraton Solo this keris is:

dhapur Pandhawa Karna Tinandhing but because of the ganja kelap lintah we could add Pandhawa Karna Tinandhing kelap lintah ?.

The description of the ricikan are:

luk 5, blades with 5 luk has in general the name pandhawa

pejetan ngajeng-wingking,
sogokan ngajeng-wingking,
tikel alis ngajeng-wingking,
sekar kacang ngajeng-wingking,
lambe gajah kalih ngajeng-wingking,
jalen ngajeng-wingking,
pudhak sategal bungkem,
ron dha kalih.

The design of this dhapur is probably not so old (late 19th-early 20th cent ?)

The execution and garapan of this blade ist still far from perfect because of the base line of the ganja and blade. Should be a small angle between the centerline of the blade and the base line therefor the blade is showing stiffness. Also the buntut of the ganja (to long) and also the flow of the wuwung ganja especialy the luk of the buntut-side is to slow.The lower ron dha is more closed then the upper one. The tampingan pejetan are almost parallel to the ada-ada, should be more narrow in the upper part and the tampingan should be straight. The lambe gajah goes to far out of the blade.

But anyway its a beginning and i have the feeling or better my observation are: the quality of of modern keris is improving and this makes me quite happy especially the keris becomes a world treasure of mankind.

The mass production of Madura might have followers but most of them are not the real high keris culture.

Salam to all of you and Happy New Year

Ki Jayamalelo
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Old 21st December 2005, 06:19 PM   #10
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Hello Ki Jayamalelo,

I placed this keris before on the forum. I got just a little response.
Your Critism is a eye opener ( although to me )
Is it possible to give a comment on this one?
Of course everybody is invited too, dont hold back
thanks in advance

greetings
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Old 21st December 2005, 06:40 PM   #11
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No need to worry about angering me at least, opinions are just that.
Perfection is a) Like beauty in the eyes of the beholder b) Perhaps best reserved for the likes of God. I think it might also be a bit difficult to really judge the garap of this blade given the limited area of the blade that is shown. I still think this is an exellent example of modern keris making. Let us keep in mind that most older blades fall even further from the tree of perfection than this one. Critique is all well and good and in fact necessary, but i would still be pleased to own such a blade.
You might also keep in mind that your ideal of the perfect blade is based on an older set of standards which may infact being changing in mode with fashion. Nothing stays the same, not even man's ideal of perfection. Just take a look at older art works to see how the ideal female form has changed over the years and through different cultures.
I think it might also be a mistake to place all these modern keris under the title of "mass produced" Madurese. Firstly mass produced gives me the idea of something machine made, where one product is identical to the next. While certain modern methods are no doubt employed this is hardly the case in the making of this keris. Also, keris of many different levels are being produce today, just as in the past. This is an example of the higher end of that spectrum. I also hope not to anger you when i say that i could really care less how the "real high culture" of keris view these modern works. That hardly invalidates their existence for me. I obviously don't collect keris for the same reasons they do, perhaps not for the same reasons ANYONE else does. All this being said, i must admit that the large part of my collection is older keris, 19thC and older, but i do own a couple of very nice 20thC pieces. To paraphrase an old saying, I may not know keris, but i know what i like.
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Old 21st December 2005, 07:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
........
I think it might also be a mistake to place all these modern keris under the title of "mass produced" Madurese. Firstly mass produced gives me the idea of something machine made, where one product is identical to the next. While certain modern methods are no doubt employed this is hardly the case in the making of this keris. Also, keris of many different levels are being produce today, just as in the past. This is an example of the higher end of that spectrum.


Right, Nechesh.
Here I posted the example of each levels are being produced today
All of these keris are NEW MADE.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 12:11 AM   #13
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Hello to all,

I have just started collecting and learning about keris, and one thing that is fascinating about them as objects is the level of craftsmanship that can go into their making. When I look at the examples above, I can really believe the old stories of famous empu shaping the hot metal with their bare hands...or other body parts in some case ...they really are organic. Ask a modern machine shop to make something of such complex shape, and with all modern CAM software and automated carving machinery few if any would be up to the challenge. New keris may -for the most part- not serve their original purpose, but as a craft, they do seem to undergo a renaissance. Look how far from their home they've gone, I'm in Canada!!
Hopefully with this rebirth, real empu might once again play big parts in keris culture.

Manolo
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Old 22nd December 2005, 01:44 AM   #14
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Sorry Martin, i didn't see your post til just now. Yes, your keris is of a similar dapor, but just as we were saying about different quality levels of modern blades i think you can probably see that yours is somewhat inferior to Alam's example. While Ki might find the form of Alam's keris stiff i think you will agree that yours is much less flowing. The garap just isn't right. But then, this is just one man's opinion.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 02:57 AM   #15
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Hello, Ki Jayamalelo. I thank you for your observation and frank opinion.
I'm not angry, should I?
I had seen the entries in the "Buku Dhuwung", the one you're referring to. I know it does not conform exactly in the book, but as I mentioned earlier, I'll collect as long as it appeals to me whether it's perfect or not.

I agree with Nechesh, on his opinion of perfection and mass-production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ki Jayamalelo
The mass production of Madura might have followers but most of them are not the real high keris culture.
You may be right but frankly, I do not care about the real high keris culture. I collect what I like, as long as it makes me happy. Your opinions are noted. Thanks again. Salam and a Happy New Year.

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Old 22nd December 2005, 03:16 AM   #16
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Default modern example...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolo
I have just started collecting and learning about keris, and one thing that is fascinating about them as objects is the level of craftsmanship that can go into their making. Ask a modern machine shop to make something of such complex shape, and with all modern CAM software and automated carving machinery few if any would be up to the challenge. New keris may -for the most part- not serve their original purpose, but as a craft, they do seem to undergo a renaissance. Look how far from their home they've gone, I'm in Canada!!
Manolo
My other modern piece, not a keris but using modern CAM equipment with precision and manual finishes.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 03:22 AM   #17
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Red face I stand corrected

Well that shut me up Alam Shah, I'll have to watch my exhuberance and admiration for the manual craft.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 03:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolo
Well that shut me up Alam Shah, I'll have to watch my exhuberance and admiration for the manual craft.
It's OK, we are all here to learn.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 07:02 PM   #19
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I must say I like those new keris that are posted here. Nice work. The art is still alive and well to some degree.
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Old 22nd December 2005, 08:00 PM   #20
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Please excuse me but I have to join in here. Some of you know that I make some decorative fittings amongst other art works. People often try to scare the pants off me by saying my skills will be replaced by a computer. This is rubbish! the computer guided tool does not do craft or art, it does machining. I am already finding customers dissatisfied with the finish and inflexability of CAD ? CAM ? what ever it is called, let alone the cost when prototypes are needed quickly. Sorry , as it is my livelihood I just had to rant. Tim
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Old 22nd December 2005, 09:00 PM   #21
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I think that it's an appropriate rant Tim .

No offense meant Alam Shah sincerely ; but when I look at your newly made auto(?) folder I get no feeling of 'soul' or artistry from it . All I see is laminated steels and faceting ; a very machine age piece .
Functional beauty yes .

Here is a site with many contemporary art knives .
http://www.miaminiceknife.com/
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Old 22nd December 2005, 09:44 PM   #22
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Wow! I can get a whole lotta keris for the price of one of them fancy modern art folders. I mean, they're nice, but.....
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Old 22nd December 2005, 10:23 PM   #23
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Very pricey ?
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Old 23rd December 2005, 01:32 AM   #24
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Default no offense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Very pricey ?
Which comes back to the Mcusta, precison machine custom knife.
This is a low-cost mass production knife, assembly and finished by hand. All I'm implying is, it's possible to make one by using CAM. I'm not saying that CAM can do everything, either. As Tim had mentioned, it has it's limitations.

I love custom knives too.
Tim, do not worry. Craftsmen like yourself are always in demand. The work done by skilled craftmen cannot be matched by machines, the human element are alway required (even in the mcusta case).

Rick, it's not an auto. It's a liner-lock folder. For more info...
http://www.knifeworks.com/index.asp...S&Category=1261

Of course there are those eye-popping beauties...
http://www.nordicknives.com/knife_t...cy_folders.html

(Er...I think I've posted in the wrong forum...should be in bladeforum.com instead).
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Old 23rd December 2005, 03:33 AM   #25
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Question CAM - Keris?

Alam Shah, Rick and Tim Simmons,

Since I opened the machinist's box, and I acknowledge the unbelievable advances in technology of this century, I'm trying to understand the feasability of machined keris...The knives presented above don't have complex surfaces like keris. They consist of many machined components, cutting and removal from a "damascus" billet -or granted, a fully forged blade- and manual assembly, no?
I guess the wilah could be mold-injected molten material, but then it's all wrong and you would get some sort of alloy/fused steel, not pamor. You could try using combinations of press and rollers but...how?? There's no automatic/mechanical process to my knowledge that could duplicate the manual shaping of the blade. Assuming a pre-forged shaped blade, how to carve the prabot? CAM milling could easily duplicate the ricikan of these nice keris in aluminium alloy, but if the machines were put to work on the low laminate keris blades, how would they fare? Wouldn't this irreparably mangle the pamor layers?
Having more or less broken down the work involved, are CAM keris possible?
Next time I'm around a shop, I'll ask .

Regards,
Manolo
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Old 23rd December 2005, 03:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolo
Alam Shah, Rick and Tim Simmons,

Since I opened the machinist's box, and I acknowledge the unbelievable advances in technology of this century, I'm trying to understand the feasability of machined keris...The knives presented above don't have complex surfaces like keris. They consist of many machined components, cutting and removal from a "damascus" billet -or granted, a fully forged blade- and manual assembly, no?
I guess the wilah could be mold-injected molten material, but then it's all wrong and you would get some sort of alloy/fused steel, not pamor. You could try using combinations of press and rollers but...how?? There's no automatic/mechanical process to my knowledge that could duplicate the manual shaping of the blade. Assuming a pre-forged shaped blade, how to carve the prabot? CAM milling could easily duplicate the ricikan of these nice keris in aluminium alloy, but if the machines were put to work on the low laminate keris blades, how would they fare? Wouldn't this irreparably mangle the pamor layers?
Having more or less broken down the work involved, are CAM keris possible?
Next time I'm around a shop, I'll ask .

Regards,
Manolo




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Old 23rd December 2005, 04:05 AM   #27
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Manolo, after watching (Empu Djeno) keris-making video, I'm convinced that it's not possible to get a good quality keris from CAM process. Knife shapes are simpler to make whilst the keris, due to it's luk shapes, curves, ricikan and grooves are difficult and almost impossible to emulate by modern process.
Experiments are always welcomed (at your own risk and cost).

So Tim, no worries. By the way can I see some examples of your work, please.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 04:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ki Jayamalelo

The mass production of Madura might have followers but most of them are not the real high keris culture.



Hi Ki Jayamalelo,

Alas... 99.9999% of us keris collectors can never hope to own, touch, or even see a high-culture keris...

But your comments are certainly necessary to see where the high end of the bar is. Empu Kumis used to share with us the features of a good keris, in accordance to his very strict standards.

Unfortunately, pictures of good high-culture kerises are far and few in between, so it is difficult to appreciate the aesthetic nuances that the words are trying to describe.

Last edited by BluErf : 23rd December 2005 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 23rd December 2005, 04:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
Sorry Martin, i didn't see your post til just now. Yes, your keris is of a similar dapor, but just as we were saying about different quality levels of modern blades i think you can probably see that yours is somewhat inferior to Alam's example.


Mans' kerises have less fancy dapur, but I don't think all of them can be said to be inferior.

The 2nd picture from the top -- that is a very graceful and balanced keris that does not lose out to the karna tinanding, which I think is a nice one too.

Look at the way the kembang kacang progresses from thick to thin before curling in -- its just 'manis' (ok, the final curled tip is a bit disappointing, but still the overal kembang kacang is very well-executed). Notice that both sides of the kembang kacang are not 'flat' at the top; there is a slight concave contour to it. This feature is much better than the karna tinanding's

The jalen and the lambei gajah, and the gandik under the jalen curls very nicely, and are not too long, not too stubby. I feel that this set of features are thus nicer than the karna tinanding's rather exaggerated ones.

The sogokan depan and belakang, in my opinion, are about as nice as the karna tinanding's, though still a bit stiff. Nice fat bungkul too.

The ganja is better though, especially in terms of the definition of the greneng, the length in proportion to the base, and the curve at the end.

Luk-wise, the keris looks proportionate and sweet.

And hey, pamor is condense and very well executed too.

Personally, I'd prefer this keris to the karna tinanding, although if presented with the chance to acquire the karna tinanding, I would grab it too!
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Old 23rd December 2005, 08:16 PM   #30
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Kai Wee, i wasn't talking about Mans display of newly made keris, i was referring to Martin's (simatua) karno tinanding example which is, at least to my eye, inferior in both overall form and craftsmanship. I agree with you about Mans' examples and have never been one to be swayed by a fancy dapor.
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