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Old 26th July 2013, 11:27 AM   #1
weapons 27
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Default jamadhar katari???

can you tell me below this dagger can be considered a jamadhar katari...

It is 38cm long, blade 26cm, the tip is reinforced as the katars
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Old 26th July 2013, 11:51 AM   #2
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Certainly not an original one. Looks like a composite piece. The blade looks like it is from a spearhead. The handle doesn't look like it is very old and the big question is when were the two components married together.
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Old 26th July 2013, 01:29 PM   #3
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I just cleaned this dagger, he was recovering with a varnish, see photo
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Old 26th July 2013, 03:02 PM   #4
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It is hard to tell but is there a casting line on the handle?
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Old 26th July 2013, 04:35 PM   #5
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This is a jamadhar katari, a distinct dagger form associated with the Kalash people (also known as Kaffirs) from Chitral regions in Hindu Kush area.
I do believe the hilts on these were typically cast, and I agree this does appear to be a spearhead. The blade bolster resembling many katars and the khandas seem to suggest this coming from regions somewhat south.

The Kaffirs were the tribal people who were situated in Kafiristan (known from Kiplings "Man Who Would be King" ) and many left there into Chitral in late 19th c. when Abdur Rahman Khan of Afghanistan invaded there. Thier animist beliefs of course highly conflicted with those imposed by Khan leading to thier dispora.

The history of the Kalash is most fascinating. Apparantly many of these daggers seem to appear in Nepal as I was told by a German collector particularly intrigued by these.
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Old 27th July 2013, 06:08 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
It is hard to tell but is there a casting line on the handle?

This did not a casting line, it is just more polished!!!!
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Old 27th July 2013, 06:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
This is a jamadhar katari, a distinct dagger form associated with the Kalash people (also known as Kaffirs) from Chitral regions in Hindu Kush area.
I do believe the hilts on these were typically cast, and I agree this does appear to be a spearhead. The blade bolster resembling many katars and the khandas seem to suggest this coming from regions somewhat south.

The Kaffirs were the tribal people who were situated in Kafiristan (known from Kiplings "Man Who Would be King" ) and many left there into Chitral in late 19th c. when Abdur Rahman Khan of Afghanistan invaded there. Thier animist beliefs of course highly conflicted with those imposed by Khan leading to thier dispora.

The history of the Kalash is most fascinating. Apparantly many of these daggers seem to appear in Nepal as I was told by a German collector particularly intrigued by these.

Thanks for the info jim
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Old 27th July 2013, 03:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I agree this does appear to be a spearhead.
Jim good information, thanks. Do you or anyone else have an example of an Indian spearhead that looks like this, I have not seen one and it would be nice to see something to compare it against.
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Old 27th July 2013, 04:25 PM   #9
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Glad to be of help guys. The fullering and malle perce tip suggest northern India, which conforms with the blade bolster at forte, and recalls the katars of these regions. I dont know offhand of a good example to suggest on the spearheads, but checking 'Hindu Arms and Ritual' and the other references might reveal something.
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Old 27th July 2013, 06:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weapons 27
can you tell me below this dagger can be considered a jamadhar katari...

It is 38cm long, blade 26cm, the tip is reinforced as the katars


Salaams weapons 27, from atkinsons swords

Please see http://atkinson-swords.com/collecti...fghanistan.html

Quote. "There is much debate about the origin of the name and in fact which name is “correct” (jamadhar, jandad, jamdhar, jumdud). The spelling jamdhar seems to indicate Hindi origin yet “Jamdar” may also be a Persian word with the suggested etymology of janb-dar, that is, 'flank render.'

The jamadhar katari is attributed to the Kafirs, an ethnic group located in the southern part of the Hindu Kush valleys, just across the border from Chitral, Pakistan. Today, this is a region of Afghanistan known historically as Kafiristan and today as Nurestan (Nuristan, Nooristan).

The Kafirs are thought to be descendants of an old Indian population that used to occupy the region and did not convert to Islam with the rest of the population. They sometimes claim to be descended from Alexander the Great who passed through the area; he only subdued the Kafirs after a great struggle. Their physical appearance is quite distinct from the Pashtun tribes in Afghanistan, for example, which may lend their claim some credence.

Until they were forcefully converted to Islam around 1895 by Emir Abdur Rahman Khan, the people of the region practiced an ancient Indo-Iranian polytheistic religion. Non-Muslim practices endure today as folk customs. The word "Kafir" is derived from the ancient Sanskrit name of the region that included historic Kafiristan. This may in turn relate to the Arabic word "Kufr", which means not only to disbelieve but also to blaspheme. Its derivative "Kafir" means one who commits blasphemy. Today, the people are known as Nuristanis to outsiders although they do not have a formal tribal structure such as the Pashtun's. Instead, they designate themselves by the names of the local regions where they live".Unquote.

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Old 27th July 2013, 06:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Glad to be of help guys. The fullering and malle perce tip suggest northern India, which conforms with the blade bolster at forte, and recalls the katars of these regions. I dont know offhand of a good example to suggest on the spearheads, but checking 'Hindu Arms and Ritual' and the other references might reveal something.



Salaams Jim ~ I am a bit confused about the nature of this blade... I understand that normally Jamadhar Katari had a single edge and were slightly curved... and that there was a peculiar pommel atop the hilt. Is this a refit using a straight push dagger blade often called a "katar" and has the pommel dropped off this one or is it a turned katar hilt grip or all of the above?

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Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 28th July 2013, 05:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Is this a refit using a straight push dagger blade often called a "katar"
The blade says "katar" to me much more than "spearhead", I have many images of katar with similar blades but I can not find an image of an Indian spearhead that looks like this.
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Old 28th July 2013, 05:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weapons 27
This did not a casting line, it is just more polished!!!!
Yes its hard to tell from the photographs. So does the hilt appear to be forged or cast in your opinion.
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Old 28th July 2013, 06:22 AM   #14
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Ibrahiim, always fantastic input and excellent hearing from you!!! That is great information on the Kaffirs, now residing primarily in Chitral and areas you noted and known tribally as Kalash.
You're absolutely right, this does look more like a katar blade, and yes, the jamadhar katari usually had curved SE blades, however there are some variations with straight. The hilts are typically cast, and some are in brass. The brass rosettes as well as the fixture at top of the hilt are seen in much of the material culture and architecture decoration in the huts etc.

There truly is a lot of debate about terms in these daggers and katars, and according to Pant, the katar was originally termed jamadhar (=tooth of death loosely, if I recall) but Egerton (1880) erred by referring to it as a katar. The term stuck and collectors began using it for the transverse grip daggers, so now its tough to change.

There is a great work on these tribes, "Kafirs of the Hindu Kush", but dont have it with me at this time.
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Old 28th July 2013, 07:42 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Ibrahiim, always fantastic input and excellent hearing from you!!! That is great information on the Kaffirs, now residing primarily in Chitral and areas you noted and known tribally as Kalash.
You're absolutely right, this does look more like a katar blade, and yes, the jamadhar katari usually had curved SE blades, however there are some variations with straight. The hilts are typically cast, and some are in brass. The brass rosettes as well as the fixture at top of the hilt are seen in much of the material culture and architecture decoration in the huts etc.

There truly is a lot of debate about terms in these daggers and katars, and according to Pant, the katar was originally termed jamadhar (=tooth of death loosely, if I recall) but Egerton (1880) erred by referring to it as a katar. The term stuck and collectors began using it for the transverse grip daggers, so now its tough to change.

There is a great work on these tribes, "Kafirs of the Hindu Kush", but dont have it with me at this time.


Salaams Jim ~ Great information thanks... I was initially attracted to the brass rosettes which are identical to Portuguese 16th C chest adornments... An odd coincidence...

I also found it odd that the hilt arrangement was apparently turned sideways... though this may have been the style.
Hope all's well in the armoured library !!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 28th July 2013, 09:31 AM   #16
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Here is an a straight blade jamadhar katari
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Old 28th July 2013, 12:35 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The history of the Kalash is most fascinating. Apparantly many of these daggers seem to appear in Nepal as I was told by a German collector particularly intrigued by these.


As Jim has noted and the mentioned German Collector, these are seen in temples in Nepal. Back in 2009 Simon shared images of a temple within the Kirtipur Palace that has these and many others mounted to the temple.

When comparing forms, the form of this example points to a composite type, perhaps old, perhaps quite new and aged

The weapons make for a very interesting study.

Gavin
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Old 29th July 2013, 04:46 AM   #18
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All,

The "Jamdhar" is a loose distortion of "Yamadaushtra" and evolved in the following way:

1. Yama (Lord of death per the Hindus) + Daushtra (tooth in Sanskrit)

which became - Yama + Dadh or "Jamdhad"

which is now "Jamdhar"

It is also used synonymous to Katars in some places in India.

my two cents...!!!!


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