Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 2nd September 2015, 02:49 PM   #1
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 247
Default A ghotic basinet helmet or victorian exemple ?

Hi at all , I Recently purcheased a collection in Germany And there was this helmet I m Really fonding hard determinate the age !
Any comment ! Input in this type etc !?

Thanks
berberdagger
Attached Images
       
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2015, 03:13 PM   #2
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 493
Default

This is either a very nice replica or a 1470s orso helmet.
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2015, 03:15 PM   #3
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 247
Default

Hi Thanks for your comment ! What You mean orso helmet ?
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2015, 03:23 PM   #4
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 247
Default

Ah it is 2,6 kg And Size is 22x20x21
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2015, 12:33 AM   #5
A Senefelder
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
Default

The weight seems right for 14th c. Can you possibly get a close up pic of the inside where one of the vervelles ( the little tubes that suspend the cord/wire that keeps the leather band to which the mail mantle is sewn in place ) is attached and perhaps at the peak of the helmet where the slight medial ridging is?
A Senefelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2015, 10:15 AM   #6
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 247
Default

Hello Thanks for your input ! Here Others pics !!
Attached Images
     
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2015, 04:43 PM   #7
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

looks very french*. if the tubes hold the leather binding of the maile skirt, what are the series of peripheral holes for? what kind of inner suspension would it have had?

*- per that most accurate and factual reference: The Holy Grail, by the noted arms expert m.python....
Attached Images
 
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2015, 05:47 PM   #8
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 493
Default

From the "Krieg und Feuerwerk Buch 1411" (war and fireworks book from 1411).

There are multiple drawings with very similar shaped helmet types, so they might be quit alot older than i first thoughed. I think i saw them in some other manuscript as well, hope to find it.

The small holes alon the edge are most certainly the attachement holes for the mail head piece, which would have protected the forehead, the neck and the back portion. It would fall over the mail shirt and thus protect you from the head to just under the waist.
Those other tubes are new to me, i never saw anything like that. It is not my field though so i am sure a more competent person will adress that.
Attached Images
     
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 12:36 AM   #9
NeilUK
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 122
Default

The small holes are where the inner lining of the helmet was stitched in place; the hollow tubes, called 'vervelles' (as A.Senefelder says above) are usually just small rings rather than tubes but the leather band which is attached to the edge of the camail is pierced with holes which fit over the vervelles and then held in place by a wire threaded through the vervelles. The unusual size of these vervelles is the only thing which worries me about the genuineness of this bascinet.
Neil
NeilUK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 12:51 AM   #10
A Senefelder
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
Default

Quote:
The small holes alon the edge are most certainly the attachement holes for the mail head piece
They are in fact not,but the holes through which the padded lining would have been stiched. The mail was suspended via the vervelles as described above. For reference see the pic of the rather famous bascinet in the Wallace collection although there are others

Berber would it be possible to do this
Quote:
Can you possibly get a close up pic of the inside where one of the vervelles ( the little tubes that suspend the cord/wire that keeps the leather band to which the mail mantle is sewn in place ) is attached and perhaps at the peak of the helmet where the slight medial ridging is?
from the inside?
Attached Images
 
A Senefelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 01:02 AM   #11
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 247
Default

Let me known if is ok ! Thanks
Attached Images
    
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 01:07 AM   #12
A Senefelder
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
Default

Several more examples attached from Churburg and Leeds. The example in the OP is of a lower peaked without visor ( at least I so nothing for affixing one nor evidence that it ever had it ) that would date it stylistically to the 1340's - 1360's as it would have been worn with a late great helmet. A fine example of the type can be seen in the article on Colaccio Becadelli ( died May 3rd 1341 ) from his funnery sculpture in " Arms and Armor Annual " 1973.
Attached Images
  
A Senefelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 01:16 AM   #13
A Senefelder
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
Default

Becadelli effigy attached showing the great helm hanging behind on suspension chains.

Quote:
Let me known if is ok ! Thanks
The material thickness seems proper, I can't make out any signs of modern welding inside, based on the pics, I can't say it is an original mid 14th bascinet but constructionally I can see no reason to be suspicious of it, all of this of course being based on looking at some photo's. Having it in hand might shed more and possibly different light on it.
Attached Images
 
A Senefelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 01:16 AM   #14
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 247
Default

Thank you ! I think the suspension theme is the same (Abaut chainmail ) ! I find exemple here : https://www.pinterest.com/rubinelli/...bacinetti-xiv/

What type of exams I can Let made to find a correct age of this helmet ? Thanks
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 01:33 AM   #15
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 247
Default

I m searching to do some better pics !! If can help !
Attached Images
     
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 01:34 AM   #16
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 247
Default

Others
Attached Images
  
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 01:14 PM   #17
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

I have nothing to add to the outstanding discourse here, but just wanted to say thanks to everybody here for the opportunity to learn more on these helmets!
Alan, I very much admire your amazing knowledge on armour, and the detailed manner in which your posts attend to the many nuances and features which reveal the authenticity of various items.

Kronckew....LOL!! Thanks for the Monty Python jab!!! Your sense of humor is priceless, I cant stop chuckling on that one

Berber......nicely done and congratulations!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 01:41 PM   #18
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

you are welcome. jim. my DNA is 75% german and 25% austro-hungarian. nations well known for their sense of humour as well as their food (sausages & beer are food groups aren't they?).

i too have learned from this thread. as an engineer, i like to know how things were made, assembled as well as how they were used and what they were used for.

thanks all.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 02:00 PM   #19
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 523
Default

Hello berberdagger,

a beautiful helmet, thank you for showing. I think your example is authentic. Here are two pictures of my favourite actor with this helmet.

Roland
Attached Images
  
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 02:41 PM   #20
BerberDagger
Member
 
BerberDagger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 247
Default

But this actor have not a sallet ?
BerberDagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2015, 03:29 PM   #21
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 523
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerberDagger
But this actor have not a sallet ?

After some researching I would say, your helmet is an original bascinet, which has lost its aventail.

The actor wears a sallet or burgonet. The movie plays in the year 1560 and is very recommendable: "Aguirre, the Wrath of God".
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2016, 10:13 PM   #22
rand
Member
 
rand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 538
Default Holes in helmet

If you look at the holes in the helmet under a high quality low power microscope(would recommend 10x) and determine if holds are made by punching or drilling. Punching indicates older, drilling indicates newer.

rand
rand is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.