Indian Torador Barrel Investigation - Part III

rickystl · 11th November 2016, 06:15 PM

Hello all.
Some of you may remember my posts in Part I and II. Those who might be interested are encouraged to read/re-read my first two Threads above which will make more sense reading this Thread. LOL
I wanted a Torador Matchlock musket that I could actually shoot, safely like any other smoothbore muzzle loader. But the Torador barrels, which were made on mandrals, have some unusual/unique characteristics inside the barrel, which presented some challenges. Briefly, the interior of the bore, from the muzzle end, the nominal bore size of about .60 caliber travels back towards the breech about 3/4 of the length, where it comes to two different types of restrictions, then a very much larger than bore size powder chamber at the breech. Even though the forged welded breech plug looked stout, I considered it generally unsafe to shoot with the bore's original configuration. Especially with today"s more powerful black powder. So, off it went to the barrelsmith to see what he could do.
So here are some pics of what I ended up with. It has a new .54 caliber steel barrel liner AND a machined insert at the breech end with a threaded breech plug, which can be removed if necessary in the future. And the original vent hole re-drilled through the liner. The bore is now the same size from muzzle to breech, and is safe to shoot. I originally sent him this barrel in November, 2015. So it took one year this month to get it back

Now I'll oil clean the outside of the barrel and send it and the stock off to the Gunsmith. The barrel will need a new pan cover made to replicate the original, and a new brass front bead site installed in the existing hole. (It somehow came loose and fell out and lost during the heating process at the muzzle end). Then the forend of the stock repaired and a hole bored at the rear of the barrel channel to accept the new breech plug. Hopefully, I should get the gun back in a month or less. Can't wait to try it out at the range.

Rick

Philip · 19th November 2016, 07:53 AM

Glad to see that someone is taking a project like this on! Looks like you chose a good barrel to work on -- it's clearly twist-forged, a good sign. Years ago, someone gave me a munition-quality torador barrel (Jaipur arsenal, I think) but visual inspection shows dimensional irregularities and an overall lack of attention to craftsmanship that would disqualify it from what you're doing. '

I wonder if the changes in bore diameter in your barrel (especially at the breech) might be due to loss of material from rust, or erosion from extensive firing?

Are you going to replicate the traditional Indian stock and firing mechanism? 'May as well keep it authentic all the way. If the barrel is on the heavier side (did you say cal. .60?), stocking it up like an early Mughal hunting gun with a bipod barrel rest would be neat -- surviving examples are almost non-existent from the era, but we see them in art -- hunt scenes in the Padshah-Nameh, portraits of Shah Jehan, etc. We're talking about beginning 17th cent. But from the guns seen in these album paintings, we can see how the very similar Central Asian, Tibetan, and Chinese muskets originated. Keep us posted on your progress! Too bad the opportunities for shooting tiggers from elephant-back are so limited in the US!

rickystl · 19th November 2016, 07:51 PM

Hi Philip. How have you been ?

I bought this Torador intentionally to make a shooter from. It is good quality, but plain and undecorated. So it has maybe a medium collector value, if you know what I mean.

The inside of the barrels were intentionally made this way. And all Torador barrels seem to have a variation of this. If you use the Search feature, you can locate my previous Threads (Part I and II) where there is a long discussion and theories as to the reason for this interior bore design. The new steel liner and sleeve in the barrel has added weight. But that's just how it had to turn out.

I won't need a new stock. I have all the other original parts including the stock, barrel bands, and even the original ramrod. The stock just needs the fore arm repaired, and a hole bored at the back of the barrel channel to accept the new breech plug.

Here is a pic of the other parts, and a pic of what the new pan cover will look like, less the decoration. Mostly just a matter of re-assembling now. I'll post again when it's complete.

Rick

Philip · 20th November 2016, 02:47 AM

Hey Rick,
Thanks for sharing the pics. This thing's gonna look good when done! Can't wait to see what kind of shot groups you get at 50 and 100 yd.

I'll check your prior post about bores. This brings to mind, years ago in college I was writing a paper and consulted a translation of the Ming technical compendium TIANGONG KAIWU , which had an entry on guns and their manufacture. The text mentions something along the lines of the "belly" of the barrel being larger than the "mouth" which implies a bigger diameter towards the breech. The type of gun discussed was a fowling piece, so it seems that the author was describing a rudimentary application of the choke principle on shotguns, which didn't become common in the West until centuries later.

Say, are you proficient at shaping and tempering V-shaped leaf springs? I recently picked up a Chinese fowling piece with the Indo-Portuguese type snapping matchlock, and the large external spring broke long ago and was jerry-rigged during its working life -- it works beautifully but I want it restored to the original shape. The "root" of the spring is intact and in place, what's missing is the area almost out at the U-bend and going up to press on the serpentine. Can you fabricate and weld on the replacement section to match if I sent you the lock and a 1:1 scale shop drawing of the complete spring (it's made of steel)? If you can imagine the spring on a Japanese matchlock, this is exactly like that except for the material. If this sounds like something you can do, why not send me a PM and we can get in touch via email.

Tony PP · 20th November 2016, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Hey Rick,
Thanks for sharing the pics. This thing's gonna look good when done! Can't wait to see what kind of shot groups you get at 50 and 100 yd.

I'll check your prior post about bores. This brings to mind, years ago in college I was writing a paper and consulted a translation of the Ming technical compendium TIANGONG KAIWU , which had an entry on guns and their manufacture. The text mentions something along the lines of the "belly" of the barrel being larger than the "mouth" which implies a bigger diameter towards the breech. The type of gun discussed was a fowling piece, so it seems that the author was describing a rudimentary application of the choke principle on shotguns, which didn't become common in the West until centuries later.

Say, are you proficient at shaping and tempering V-shaped leaf springs? I recently picked up a Chinese fowling piece with the Indo-Portuguese type snapping matchlock, and the large external spring broke long ago and was jerry-rigged during its working life -- it works beautifully but I want it restored to the original shape. The "root" of the spring is intact and in place, what's missing is the area almost out at the U-bend and going up to press on the serpentine. Can you fabricate and weld on the replacement section to match if I sent you the lock and a 1:1 scale shop drawing of the complete spring (it's made of steel)? If you can imagine the spring on a Japanese matchlock, this is exactly like that except for the material. If this sounds like something you can do, why not send me a PM and we can get in touch via email.

Hello Philip, I have tried several times over the years to weld broken springs with very limited success. I think trying to weld new to old would have even less chance of working. Perhaps it is possible but for me I prefer to make a new spring.

rickystl · 20th November 2016, 04:33 PM

Hi Philip.

If "I" tried to make a mainspring, I would just end up with a glob of metal LOL.
My gunsmith does all this type of work, making springs, etc.
Tony is right. I've never seen welding one piece to another turn out well. You end up with two different spring tempers. Better to have a complete new spring made. And that you have the basic "root" of the spring, and a detail of what it's supposed to look like, makes the job much easier. The "spring" in the temper for a snapping matchlock would be much lighter than the spring for a flintlock or percussion weapon.
I'll send you a PM with a couple ideas.

Rick

11th November 2016, 06:15 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Indian Torador Barrel Investigation - Part III Hello all. Some of you may remember my posts in Part I and II. Those who might be interested are encouraged to read/re-read my first two Threads above which will make more sense reading this Thread. LOL I wanted a Torador Matchlock musket that I could actually shoot, safely like any other smoothbore muzzle loader. But the Torador barrels, which were made on mandrals, have some unusual/unique characteristics inside the barrel, which presented some challenges. Briefly, the interior of the bore, from the muzzle end, the nominal bore size of about .60 caliber travels back towards the breech about 3/4 of the length, where it comes to two different types of restrictions, then a very much larger than bore size powder chamber at the breech. Even though the forged welded breech plug looked stout, I considered it generally unsafe to shoot with the bore's original configuration. Especially with today"s more powerful black powder. So, off it went to the barrelsmith to see what he could do. So here are some pics of what I ended up with. It has a new .54 caliber steel barrel liner AND a machined insert at the breech end with a threaded breech plug, which can be removed if necessary in the future. And the original vent hole re-drilled through the liner. The bore is now the same size from muzzle to breech, and is safe to shoot. I originally sent him this barrel in November, 2015. So it took one year this month to get it back Now I'll oil clean the outside of the barrel and send it and the stock off to the Gunsmith. The barrel will need a new pan cover made to replicate the original, and a new brass front bead site installed in the existing hole. (It somehow came loose and fell out and lost during the heating process at the muzzle end). Then the forend of the stock repaired and a hole bored at the rear of the barrel channel to accept the new breech plug. Hopefully, I should get the gun back in a month or less. Can't wait to try it out at the range. Rick Attached Images

19th November 2016, 07:51 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Philip. How have you been ? I bought this Torador intentionally to make a shooter from. It is good quality, but plain and undecorated. So it has maybe a medium collector value, if you know what I mean. The inside of the barrels were intentionally made this way. And all Torador barrels seem to have a variation of this. If you use the Search feature, you can locate my previous Threads (Part I and II) where there is a long discussion and theories as to the reason for this interior bore design. The new steel liner and sleeve in the barrel has added weight. But that's just how it had to turn out. I won't need a new stock. I have all the other original parts including the stock, barrel bands, and even the original ramrod. The stock just needs the fore arm repaired, and a hole bored at the back of the barrel channel to accept the new breech plug. Here is a pic of the other parts, and a pic of what the new pan cover will look like, less the decoration. Mostly just a matter of re-assembling now. I'll post again when it's complete. Rick Attached Images

19th November 2016, 07:53 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Glad to see that someone is taking a project like this on! Looks like you chose a good barrel to work on -- it's clearly twist-forged, a good sign. Years ago, someone gave me a munition-quality torador barrel (Jaipur arsenal, I think) but visual inspection shows dimensional irregularities and an overall lack of attention to craftsmanship that would disqualify it from what you're doing. ' I wonder if the changes in bore diameter in your barrel (especially at the breech) might be due to loss of material from rust, or erosion from extensive firing? Are you going to replicate the traditional Indian stock and firing mechanism? 'May as well keep it authentic all the way. If the barrel is on the heavier side (did you say cal. .60?), stocking it up like an early Mughal hunting gun with a bipod barrel rest would be neat -- surviving examples are almost non-existent from the era, but we see them in art -- hunt scenes in the Padshah-Nameh, portraits of Shah Jehan, etc. We're talking about beginning 17th cent. But from the guns seen in these album paintings, we can see how the very similar Central Asian, Tibetan, and Chinese muskets originated. Keep us posted on your progress! Too bad the opportunities for shooting tiggers from elephant-back are so limited in the US!

20th November 2016, 02:47 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Hey Rick, Thanks for sharing the pics. This thing's gonna look good when done! Can't wait to see what kind of shot groups you get at 50 and 100 yd. I'll check your prior post about bores. This brings to mind, years ago in college I was writing a paper and consulted a translation of the Ming technical compendium TIANGONG KAIWU , which had an entry on guns and their manufacture. The text mentions something along the lines of the "belly" of the barrel being larger than the "mouth" which implies a bigger diameter towards the breech. The type of gun discussed was a fowling piece, so it seems that the author was describing a rudimentary application of the choke principle on shotguns, which didn't become common in the West until centuries later. Say, are you proficient at shaping and tempering V-shaped leaf springs? I recently picked up a Chinese fowling piece with the Indo-Portuguese type snapping matchlock, and the large external spring broke long ago and was jerry-rigged during its working life -- it works beautifully but I want it restored to the original shape. The "root" of the spring is intact and in place, what's missing is the area almost out at the U-bend and going up to press on the serpentine. Can you fabricate and weld on the replacement section to match if I sent you the lock and a 1:1 scale shop drawing of the complete spring (it's made of steel)? If you can imagine the spring on a Japanese matchlock, this is exactly like that except for the material. If this sounds like something you can do, why not send me a PM and we can get in touch via email.

20th November 2016, 04:33 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Philip. If "I" tried to make a mainspring, I would just end up with a glob of metal LOL. My gunsmith does all this type of work, making springs, etc. Tony is right. I've never seen welding one piece to another turn out well. You end up with two different spring tempers. Better to have a complete new spring made. And that you have the basic "root" of the spring, and a detail of what it's supposed to look like, makes the job much easier. The "spring" in the temper for a snapping matchlock would be much lighter than the spring for a flintlock or percussion weapon. I'll send you a PM with a couple ideas. Rick