Mystery (Ceremonial?) Knife...

laEspadaAncha · 29th June 2010, 03:47 AM

So a friend of mine who is a local antique dealer showed me this today. The hilt and scabbard are made of bronze. The blade, which is flat and unsharpened, is iron. The knife and scabbard together must weigh more than 2 lbs / 1kg. The back of the hilt is hollowed out, as is part of the scabbard.

African? European? Asian? Ceremonial? Movie prop?

It's mine for the taking if I want it...

I didn't even think to check to see if the hilt was hollow in the grip, or if I could see the tang... but I'll be seeing him later this week.

carlos · 29th June 2010, 07:40 AM

Semms african to me, maybe fron Benin? I remember see one similar in a african art shop some time ago.
best regards

laEspadaAncha · 29th June 2010, 06:36 PM

Hi Carlos,

Thanks for the reply... that was my initial reaction to the piece. I'm hoping more will chime in as well. 97 views? Someone must have an opinion or have seen something similar...

Martin Lubojacky · 29th June 2010, 09:11 PM

This should be from Nigeria.
regards,
Martin
P.S. And, I am very afraid - made just to be sold

laEspadaAncha · 29th June 2010, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

This should be from Nigeria.
regards,
Martin
P.S. And, I am very afraid - made just to be sold

Hi Martin,

Thank you, and no worries... I took pictures of it at his house to put it up in front of the forum before I bought it for this very reason.

I have several African pieces - edged weapons, masks, and a shield - all which were made for indigenous use (ceremonial, warfare, or otherwise), and I wish not to dilute the collection with pieces made purely for the tourist market.

Anybody else want to chime in?

Luc LEFEBVRE · 29th June 2010, 10:26 PM

This is a Bata, Vere, Namdschi knife from Nigeria/Cameroon.
In fact, it don't seems to be a good one.

laEspadaAncha · 29th June 2010, 10:48 PM

We have a match!

Thank you Luc... You have a PM coming your way.

Martin Lubojacky · 30th June 2010, 07:54 PM

Similar handle, the sword is nearly 1 meter long

laEspadaAncha · 30th June 2010, 08:22 PM

So were these intended to be used for ceremonial purposes, as status symbols, or were any of them intended for utilitarian use? The example my friend has is heavy - on the back side of 1kg - and as mentioned, the blade is a simple piece of flattened iron with no sharp edges.

Are you still under the impression my friend's example was made for the tourist trade?

Martin Lubojacky · 2nd July 2010, 08:51 PM

I think Luc would know better. My personal opinion is status symbol.
Re tourist o real one: This is my personal opinion again, as I have send such "black patina" from my two pieces (one sword, one bracelet) to the laboratory and the resalt was "fake", false patina. On the opposite, when I bought such more or less current item directly in Mandara mountains, the brass was never so dark.

Martin Lubojacky · 2nd July 2010, 08:58 PM

There is also one possibility: In Rhumsiki I saw they stored old shields, bows and spears below the roof, just above the fireplace, and the items were black because of ash. The best would be to analyse patina.
Regards,
Martin

katana · 2nd July 2010, 10:12 PM

Looking at the patina.....to me, is too uniform (suggesting it is not 'natural'). The hollow in the handle is, too me, a little suspicious, as if it should be hung on the wall as decoration (hollow side to the wall) ....this saves using brass/bronze which wouldn't be seen.
You also have to ask yourself, why a 'status' symbol would left 'uncleaned' for so long (long enough for such a dark patina to develop)

Regards David

Luc LEFEBVRE · 2nd July 2010, 10:24 PM

Fake

laEspadaAncha · 3rd July 2010, 02:24 AM

Thank you David, Luc, & Martin for your input and feedback... I'm glad I didn't "jump the gun," so to speak, and pick this up only to later regret it (been there, done that

).

Rgds,

Chris

29th June 2010, 03:47 AM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Mystery (Ceremonial?) Knife... So a friend of mine who is a local antique dealer showed me this today. The hilt and scabbard are made of bronze. The blade, which is flat and unsharpened, is iron. The knife and scabbard together must weigh more than 2 lbs / 1kg. The back of the hilt is hollowed out, as is part of the scabbard. African? European? Asian? Ceremonial? Movie prop? It's mine for the taking if I want it... I didn't even think to check to see if the hilt was hollow in the grip, or if I could see the tang... but I'll be seeing him later this week.

29th June 2010, 07:40 AM	#2
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 731	African? Semms african to me, maybe fron Benin? I remember see one similar in a african art shop some time ago. best regards

29th June 2010, 10:26 PM	#6
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	This is a Bata, Vere, Namdschi knife from Nigeria/Cameroon. In fact, it don't seems to be a good one. Attached Images

30th June 2010, 07:54 PM	#8
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Similar handle, the sword is nearly 1 meter long Attached Images

29th June 2010, 06:36 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Carlos, Thanks for the reply... that was my initial reaction to the piece. I'm hoping more will chime in as well. 97 views? Someone must have an opinion or have seen something similar...

29th June 2010, 09:11 PM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	This should be from Nigeria. regards, Martin P.S. And, I am very afraid - made just to be sold

29th June 2010, 10:48 PM	#7
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	We have a match! Thank you Luc... You have a PM coming your way.

30th June 2010, 08:22 PM	#9
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	So were these intended to be used for ceremonial purposes, as status symbols, or were any of them intended for utilitarian use? The example my friend has is heavy - on the back side of 1kg - and as mentioned, the blade is a simple piece of flattened iron with no sharp edges. Are you still under the impression my friend's example was made for the tourist trade?

2nd July 2010, 08:51 PM	#10
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	I think Luc would know better. My personal opinion is status symbol. Re tourist o real one: This is my personal opinion again, as I have send such "black patina" from my two pieces (one sword, one bracelet) to the laboratory and the resalt was "fake", false patina. On the opposite, when I bought such more or less current item directly in Mandara mountains, the brass was never so dark.

2nd July 2010, 08:58 PM	#11
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	There is also one possibility: In Rhumsiki I saw they stored old shields, bows and spears below the roof, just above the fireplace, and the items were black because of ash. The best would be to analyse patina. Regards, Martin

2nd July 2010, 10:12 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Looking at the patina.....to me, is too uniform (suggesting it is not 'natural'). The hollow in the handle is, too me, a little suspicious, as if it should be hung on the wall as decoration (hollow side to the wall) ....this saves using brass/bronze which wouldn't be seen. You also have to ask yourself, why a 'status' symbol would left 'uncleaned' for so long (long enough for such a dark patina to develop) Regards David

2nd July 2010, 10:24 PM	#13
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	Fake

3rd July 2010, 02:24 AM	#14
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Thank you David, Luc, & Martin for your input and feedback... I'm glad I didn't "jump the gun," so to speak, and pick this up only to later regret it (been there, done that ). Rgds, Chris