UNUSUAL KILIJ FITTINGS - ... EAST EUROPEAN?

[ALEX]

Here is the standard Turkish Kilij blade with original scabbard. The scabbard appears to be Ottoman, BUT the figures depicted on it are not typical Ottoman, and certainly not Islamic. The war-man and the dragon are not the theme one would expect on Ottoman scabbard. One guess is that it was mounted in Eastern Europe (Hungary, Bulgaria, etc). Any ideas on origin, age, or references to these two characters? Thanks!

[fernando]

Hi Alex,
I bet Philip Tom would have a say on that; this would (also) be his area of expertise.

Fernando

[ilias]

Dear Alex hi.
I believe that this kilij has Greek mounts.Very often at the Greek weapons we see figures like that.Because of the dragon I believe that the figure is St George.We find it often enough at the Greek weapons. It symbolize the victory of Greeks against Ottomans.The other thought is goddess Athena.I attach a picture from a Greek flintlock with the Athena goddess. She holds a shield with a face on it and a lance.Just see the similarities at the faces and the rest of decoration.
Best
Ilias

[ALEX]

Thanks Ilias. Very Interesting analogy. There are some similarities indeed: a lance in the right hand and shield in the left. The only difference is the gender:-) I believe the figure on the scabbard has a man's face, with the beard... another puzzle.
Are there any references to Greek-mounted Ottoman blades?

[ilias]

Hi Alex.
The most of the weapons that Greeks used at The Independence War at 1821 are Ottoman.You see when they won a fight they collected the weapons of the dead enemies and they used them.Anyone who had enough money remounted the blades or the daggers or the rifles by his wish usually with silver.The remounting was done by local artists and the decoration was quite the same.You can also find similar decoration at cartridge boxes.The motives was done either engraving the metal like yours or engraving and niello but with more details at the figures.I will provide to you toomorrow some pictures from swords with figures quite like yours with niello work.
Also check that cartridge box from Artzi.http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2171
Best
Ilias

[ilias]

Hi Alex again.
I have just found a sword at a book of mine.It is an Ottoman kilij with Greek mounts.The scabbard is silver with niello.It also shows a human figure and a dragon.The writter doesn't explain the symbolism of the theme.I believe that the meaning is the Greek warrior that fights the Dragon(Ottomans).You see the theme is the same but it changes the quality of the job.The better the artist the better the quality of the job.You see the folk artists didn't had the skills of a painter so the quality of the figures sometimes are bad just the figure to reminds human.I will try to find images where you can see the blades of the swords.Any name on the back side of the scabbard?
Best
Ilias

[Philip]

I agree that a likely explanation of the man-fighting-dragon iconography is a depiction of St. George and his epic struggle. In Western European art, George is usually depicted on horseback, but the the cases seen here, it could be a variation on a familiar theme.

Other Christian themes I've seen on Greek-remounted Ottoman blades are the Agnus Dei, and the Lion of St. Mark. Years ago I had a yataghan, with a fairly ordinary Turkish blade with the somewhat crude chiseled inscription, in a magnificent silver scabbard, most likely Greek, with the lion emblem chased on the front center portion. I'm still kicking myself for trading it off for something -- for what I can no longer remember so it probably wasn't a very wise decision although it probably made financial sense at the time.

[ariel]

Ilias,
What book is that?

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Thanks Ilias. Very Interesting analogy. There are some similarities indeed: a lance in the right hand and shield in the left. The only difference is the gender:-) I believe the figure on the scabbard has a man's face, with the beard... another puzzle.
Are there any references to Greek-mounted Ottoman blades?

A beard?
Where do you see it?

Moreover, if you really want to determine the gender , other regions might be more informative :-)
In this case, I would vote for the XX genotype
Sorry, as an endocrinologist, I just could not resist :-)

[libra]

Hi Ariel
The book that I took the reference is a Greek one.If you are interested I can send you the title.It has a lot of Greek weapons and other folk items.
Best
Ilias

[ilias]

Sorry about that.I answered through my jobs computer and my partner was logged earlier so I answered through his name.
Best
Ilias

[ALEX]

Ariel, I completely agree:-) I thought the face looked man-like. The left side has what appears to be a patch of stubble. It could have been a bad attempt to beautify a woman's face...as Ilias mentioned - those folk artists did the best they could. Good point, Ilias.

Ilias, Philip: Thank you, much appreciate your references and effort.

[ilias]

Hi everyone.
Ariel the book that I took the images is a Greek one with weapons and folk items.If you are interested I will inform you the title and the writer.
I add some pictures Alex as I promissed yesterday for your reference about Ottoman remounted blades and some images I found from sword scabbards just to compare the figures.
The detail of the scabbards decoration of the kilij is at the last picture.
Best
Ilias

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by ALEX

... I believe the figure on the scabbard has a man's face, with the beard...

to me the figure appears to have mammaries and female genitalia.

the whole figure looks very crude tho. the stippling on one side of the face may be as a result of the 'artisan' colouring outside the lines, like the line of the spear thru the hand. could this have been the artisans young apprentice working on a cheap decoration 'improvement' on a captured weapon that had been plainer? or maybe the owner redecoration it himself out of boredom over a winter or time in garrison?

edited: the post above that beat me to the press in the next to last high relief athena shows a very similar hat/helmet tho done a bit better, and she's not nekkid (well, maybe the mammaries ).