Bosnian Bichaq

[Battara]

Thank you folks. Very helpful. And thanks for the sharing for comparison. I just love green bone and ivory!

[Rick]

It seems that my example is the only one with a different mark.

All the examples shown , as far as I can tell, have a hardened edge; they are sturdy workmanlike knives.

[TVV]

I hope nobody would mind me renewing this thread wih new examples - my goal is to keep as much of the information in one thread for later reference purposes.
Here is a somewhat more unusual variation of this type of knives. Not as unusual as Rick's, but still different. It is similar to #11 from Hermann-Historica's catalogue, which is described there as a Bosnian dagger with lacquer filled drilled holes decoration and a more pronounced head (pommel?), with a simple scabbard (not pictured). Mine is without scabbard, but it would have probably been similar to the usual construction of two wooden halves encased in thin brass sheet.
Below I have it next to my other three bichaqs, and I have also tried to take comparison photos of the hilts. Finally, there are photos of all the markings - one is unmarked, two have the so-called "kilidj/shamshir" marking and the new one has a marking which I cannot name, since I am not really sure what it aims to represent.
I wonder, has there been a study of these interesting knives, which might give us some insight as to the meaning of the different marks and the decoration on the hilts. I agree with Jim that the circles and dots are most likely solar symbols, but would always love to learn more.
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Very nice work on the scabbard Jose ! and this is a remarkable example, especially as you note the green dyed horn grip is most unusual. It seems I had heard in discussion once the suggestion that the green, a very sacred color in Islam, was intended to signify the Hajii, or Pilgrimage to Mecca. I wonder if this might be the case, and would be interested to hear more on this suggestion. It seems that obviously the green coloring has been seen on a number of horn gripped Islamic weapons of various forms.

Another feature that seems prevalent on Bosnian edged weapons are the raised studded screws, and these appear also on some Balkan yataghans. I have often wondered the purpose of this feature, and if some particular reason for it.

Most interesting comments on the shamshir marking, another example of a key weapon form appearing on a blade as a makers mark or other meaning. On other threads we have noted some tulwar blades stamped with a katar, another dagger blade with what appears to suggest a madu. I'd like to know if there is more detail on this marking as well.

Teodor, thank you for the note on the circle marking, and there is much more research on these and so many other markings. I am always happy to see any interest in markings and symbolism in weapons as you know!!

Great thread on these interesting knives!!!

Best regards,
Jim

[Battara]

Many thanks Jim. I had forgotten about green being a sacred color in Islam....

TVV thank you for sharing and bringing this thread up again - I have not seen the other blade marks before.....

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

I wonder, has there been a study of these interesting knives, which might give us some insight as to the meaning of the different marks and the decoration on the hilts. I agree with Jim that the circles and dots are most likely solar symbols, but would always love to learn more.
Teodor

Jim is wrong I am afraid to say and apologies as I overlooked this and never addressed this before.

Solar symbols would be heretical as first of all most of the makers were Muslims. Imagine using solar symbols in inquisitional Spain... the maker would end up on a pyre. Best to check the context of the folks living at that time...

Being Muslim it was haram ( forbidden) to portray men hence they turned to mathematic symbols. Which resulted in most beautiful art as one still can see from Samarkand to Fez in architecture but also furniture, woven blankets, carpets, tiles, etc. Hence as well as decoration for weapons.


But they went also for their own roots: in the Middle Ages before the arrival of the Ottomans, Bosnia had their own church ( seperate from the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church). This Bosnian Church : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Church
had and still has their tombstones all over the country.

The enclosed example is one of them and if you take out on leg of the cross, you have the circle with the symbol you often see as decoration on many of the better bichaqs.
As for the "cheaper" ones or the ones needed to be produced quickly... a dot in the circle would do. The same one can see in present day Baščaršija ( old market in Sarajevo's old ancient town center) People used and still do use just examples they had & have around them ( and Bosnia & Hercegovina is full of them)

[Yvain]

Thanks for this very useful information GP ! My girlfriend is bidding on one that will be auctionned tomorrow (fingers crossed ! ) , so I'm sure she will be happy to have this at her disposal to read through !

[gp]

Originally Posted by Yvain

Thanks for this very useful information GP ! My girlfriend is bidding on one that will be auctionned tomorrow (fingers crossed ! ) , so I'm sure she will be happy to have this at her disposal to read through !

je vous en prie / you're welcome !

are you sure....your girlfriend and a bichaq...? Mon Dieu.... what have you done ...?
time 4 U 2 call the guys from Patria Nostra (the Foreign Legion) and enlist ASAP!
Attention: the recruitment office is not in Marseille anymore but AUBAGNE
Allez, allez cher Amice....depechez Vous


Good luck at the auction !!!!


FYI: the picture is of a sapeur arriving in Paris for the Bastille Day parade, July 13th 1939

[Battara]

Actually GP, I will disagree with you on Bosnian Islam. There is a thing called "Folk Islam" just like "Folk Christianity". At one time up till even the Balkans wars in the 1990s, there were elements of old Christianity in several rural and semi-isolated areas that are officially Muslim. Folk Islam is even in Indonesia and the Philippines, as well as in other places. Officially yes the old forms are forbidden, but then again, you make note of the prohibition of the human form in Islamic art, yet we see a lot of human forms in Persian and Indian art. How may Persian khanjars have I seen with human figures carved into them? I also see similar issues with the human face in older Sulu Muslim art in the southern Philippines, where mixed in with the ukkil (vegetative motifs) is a human face.

All of this to say that I believe that these symbols could very well be old solar motifs but not mentioned or recognized as such. There are whole traditions of Folk Islam in Persian and other Shia groups (aka Assassin groups for example).

[TVV]

Originally Posted by gp

Jim is wrong I am afraid to say and apologies as I overlooked this and never addressed this before.

Solar symbols would be heretical as first of all most of the makers were Muslims. Imagine using solar symbols in inquisitional Spain... the maker would end up on a pyre. Best to check the context of the folks living at that time...

Being Muslim it was haram ( forbidden) to portray men hence they turned to mathematic symbols. Which resulted in most beautiful art as one still can see from Samarkand to Fez in architecture but also furniture, woven blankets, carpets, tiles, etc. Hence as well as decoration for weapons.


But they went also for their own roots: in the Middle Ages before the arrival of the Ottomans, Bosnia had their own church ( seperate from the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church). This Bosnian Church : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Church
had and still has their tombstones all over the country.

The enclosed example is one of them and if you take out on leg of the cross, you have the circle with the symbol you often see as decoration on many of the better bichaqs.
As for the "cheaper" ones or the ones needed to be produced quickly... a dot in the circle would do. The same one can see in present day Baščaršija ( old market in Sarajevo's old ancient town center) People used and still do use just examples they had & have around them ( and Bosnia & Hercegovina is full of them)

I personally think things are much more complex than that, and everyone is correct, at least to a degree.

The Muslim religion does not specifically forbid images of living things, but idolatry. Some interpretations of the Quran link images of living creatures with idolatry, hence why it is avoided, but there are exceptions. For example, there are a dragon and a phoenix on Sultan Suleyman I's famous yataghan, and monster (sometimes referred to as doplphin) heads on the scabbard chapes of thousands of yataghans from the 19th century. Obviously, any outright worshipping of the sun itself would be unacceptable.

An interpretation of the circle and dot motif in a Muslim context that I have seen is that it represents Allah, as the dot in the middle and his control over the universe, as the circle around him. Whether this is true or not I cannot tell, as only the artists who applied these symbols really knew their actual meaning.

However, often times a symbol will be repeated in folk art, its meaning and interpretation changing over time. Such symbols exist all over the world and predate Islam. The origin of the symbol is therefore most likely of a solar nature. After the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans and the conversion to Islam of certain parts of the population, its meaning may have been adapted to the new religion, while it remained in use in applied arts.

As for the three dot in a circle symbol, I will just point out that it was popular all over the Balkans, not just in Bosnia. In what is nowadays Bulgaria, it was used along with the single dot in a circle motif for decorating the hilts of shepherd's knives (or karakulaks), this particular type of knives referred to as "ashirtmaliya" (the word of Turkish origin meaning "decorated") in knife smith inventory books.

[gp]

Quite some Bosnian bichaqs (especially the handles), are mostly inspired / derived from the yataghans by their makers.
Obviously from the pre Habsburg era, these examples were Ottoman yataghans.
Hereby enclosed an overview of the different types of yataghan handles

[gp]

I recently purchased this one which :

- has not the typical circular and colored ornaments on the handle which can be found on the "Habsburgian Bosniaken" ones
- has all other criteria match and determine it as a Bosnian or at least a Balkan one I believe
- has a stamp on the blade which I have seen somewhere but can't recall where

unfortunately no scabbard though...

so kindly requested to assist as I am very much looking forward to your advice on its age, the stamp and if I am correct or mistaken concerning the origin, much obliged !


take care and stay healthy you all !

Gunar