Curved Touareg sword?

Emanuel · 15th July 2005, 05:22 PM

Hello
Following my new interest in sword collecting and passion for their history, I've encountered this particular blade identified as a Touareg sabre. It is curved and not a takouba, so what is it? I've seen another similar blade but with a very thick jambiya hilt uncharacteristic of touareg/morrocan/algerian swords. Any ideas on its name and origin?

Thanks
Manolo

Henk · 15th July 2005, 05:55 PM

I doubt it is touareg at all. I'm afraid it is very new and made for the tourist market.

Emanuel · 15th July 2005, 06:03 PM

Agreed, it most certainly looks kich, but I'm wondering whether it has any historical precedence. The crescent decorations on the blade would indicate a muslim/northern african model.

Ian · 15th July 2005, 06:26 PM

I have several of these that were brought back from Ghana and Cote D'ivoire. They are new and sold inexpensively to the tourist trade.

Ian.

Emanuel · 15th July 2005, 06:37 PM

That solves that question then, thanks.

Jim McDougall · 15th July 2005, 10:08 PM

Hi Manolo,
Although it has been agreed that your example is a tourist trade item, I am very impressed that you are seeking information on what particular weapon or culture would have influenced its style and decoration. This is what the study of ethnographic edged weapons is all about and I just wanted to reinforce that since you are just beginning the obsession

Tourist items however offer great difficulty in such sincere study as they are typically composites of various weapon types not necessarily connected and often reach nearly fantasy level, intended for dramatic effect.

Nicely placed question!
Best regards,
Jim

Rick · 15th July 2005, 11:24 PM

By the way Manolo , did you purchase that keris you inquired about ?

I thought that it was a fairly nice example from what I could see in the pictures .

Emanuel · 16th July 2005, 02:28 PM

Hello Jim,

It is quite fascinating to see the evolutions of all these blades. The variety is staggering and makes me wonder just how much time and money i'll spend from now on building up a decent collection. These weapons have been so important in shaping history that they embody a lot about the cultures that created them. It's wonderful learning all this.

Rick about that keris auction - that I had unwittingly posted while live - no, I didn't get to purchase it. First reason was that I just started playing the ebay market and I had a good bit to learn about successful auctions. Secondly I was unsure of its authenticity. I thought I'd wait until I'd read Stone's Glossary...and learn more - still haven't received it. Incidentally, my question at the time was whether the orientation of the pommel in regards to the gangya of the keris is of any significance, be it as a sign of authenticity, cultural differentiation or simply functional consideration.

I recently did purchase a different keris: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=7335199915
It'll be a while before I receive it.

Thanks for the encouragement
Manolo

Rick · 16th July 2005, 03:22 PM

Hi Manolo , as you are new at this I would strongly suggest you spend your next few hundred dollars on books . These are really the key to becoming an astute collector and being able to assemble a worthwhile collection .

As for keris I would suggest you read these two rather long but very informative threads from our old UBB format forum .

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000307.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000402.html

A copy of Stone's is a good first building block ; this book has been recently republished by Dover Press and you may be able to find a copy at either Amazon or Abebooks.com .

There is also a wealth of information to be found using the search function on both this and the old forum .

Henk · 16th July 2005, 06:49 PM

Manolo,

Unfortunately Rick is a little bit very right. You'd better spent your money on some good books about keris or other weapons. Even then it is hard to recognize the authenticity of a weapon. As a beginning collector you certainly will make some mistakes, like we all did.

This keris you bought is a cheap tourist keris representing a keris from madura. The scabbard and ukiran are newly made and the snakehead on the wrangka is complete fantasy. On a real authentic keris you will never see it in this way. The blade itself is made in mass production with some kind of imitation pamor and a very rudely made naga with brass inlay.

Today new kerisses are still made on the traditional way. If you can buy such a keris you may have a brandnew keris, but it is at least a good and well made keris.

My advice to you is to keep this keris a while and compare it with some real and good keris. The traditional new ones and the real old and antique ones. That's the best way to learn. To hold it in your hands and to see the differences. When you put up a small collection you have two options. Resell this keris and maybe you have to take some loss or profit when you're lucky. Or you can keep this keris in your collection as an example of the mistake we all once made. Somewhere deep hidden in the catacombs of my house, where nobody comes, you can find my mistake

Emanuel · 16th July 2005, 06:51 PM

Hello Rick
I understand the wisdom of your words

. I realize I have a lot of literature ahead of me. From what I've glimpsed so far it will be most enjoyable and informative.

My thanks for all your help in joining this world of blades.
Manolo

Emanuel · 16th July 2005, 06:58 PM

Henk
I was thinking that this would very well be a tourist piece. Nonetheless, it will still be a valuable learning experience. Until I walk through that part of the world and see the good traditional work I will contend myself with books and with whatever cheap pieces on ebay my current limited budget may afford

In time I'll know enougth to fully appreciate these cultural marvels and to build a solid collection. - I think I'll still keep the fake

Regards
Manolo

15th July 2005, 05:22 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Curved Touareg sword? Hello Following my new interest in sword collecting and passion for their history, I've encountered this particular blade identified as a Touareg sabre. It is curved and not a takouba, so what is it? I've seen another similar blade but with a very thick jambiya hilt uncharacteristic of touareg/morrocan/algerian swords. Any ideas on its name and origin? Thanks Manolo Attached Images Last edited by Manolo; 15th July 2005 at 05:37 PM.

15th July 2005, 05:55 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I doubt it is touareg at all. I'm afraid it is very new and made for the tourist market.

15th July 2005, 06:03 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Agreed, it most certainly looks kich, but I'm wondering whether it has any historical precedence. The crescent decorations on the blade would indicate a muslim/northern african model.

15th July 2005, 06:26 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,031	I have several of these that were brought back from Ghana and Cote D'ivoire. They are new and sold inexpensively to the tourist trade. Ian.

15th July 2005, 06:37 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	That solves that question then, thanks.

15th July 2005, 10:08 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Hi Manolo, Although it has been agreed that your example is a tourist trade item, I am very impressed that you are seeking information on what particular weapon or culture would have influenced its style and decoration. This is what the study of ethnographic edged weapons is all about and I just wanted to reinforce that since you are just beginning the obsession Tourist items however offer great difficulty in such sincere study as they are typically composites of various weapon types not necessarily connected and often reach nearly fantasy level, intended for dramatic effect. Nicely placed question! Best regards, Jim

15th July 2005, 11:24 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	By the way Manolo , did you purchase that keris you inquired about ? I thought that it was a fairly nice example from what I could see in the pictures .

16th July 2005, 02:28 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Jim, It is quite fascinating to see the evolutions of all these blades. The variety is staggering and makes me wonder just how much time and money i'll spend from now on building up a decent collection. These weapons have been so important in shaping history that they embody a lot about the cultures that created them. It's wonderful learning all this. Rick about that keris auction - that I had unwittingly posted while live - no, I didn't get to purchase it. First reason was that I just started playing the ebay market and I had a good bit to learn about successful auctions. Secondly I was unsure of its authenticity. I thought I'd wait until I'd read Stone's Glossary...and learn more - still haven't received it. Incidentally, my question at the time was whether the orientation of the pommel in regards to the gangya of the keris is of any significance, be it as a sign of authenticity, cultural differentiation or simply functional consideration. I recently did purchase a different keris: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=7335199915 It'll be a while before I receive it. Thanks for the encouragement Manolo

16th July 2005, 03:22 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Hi Manolo , as you are new at this I would strongly suggest you spend your next few hundred dollars on books . These are really the key to becoming an astute collector and being able to assemble a worthwhile collection . As for keris I would suggest you read these two rather long but very informative threads from our old UBB format forum . http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000307.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000402.html A copy of Stone's is a good first building block ; this book has been recently republished by Dover Press and you may be able to find a copy at either Amazon or Abebooks.com . There is also a wealth of information to be found using the search function on both this and the old forum .

16th July 2005, 06:49 PM	#10
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Manolo, Unfortunately Rick is a little bit very right. You'd better spent your money on some good books about keris or other weapons. Even then it is hard to recognize the authenticity of a weapon. As a beginning collector you certainly will make some mistakes, like we all did. This keris you bought is a cheap tourist keris representing a keris from madura. The scabbard and ukiran are newly made and the snakehead on the wrangka is complete fantasy. On a real authentic keris you will never see it in this way. The blade itself is made in mass production with some kind of imitation pamor and a very rudely made naga with brass inlay. Today new kerisses are still made on the traditional way. If you can buy such a keris you may have a brandnew keris, but it is at least a good and well made keris. My advice to you is to keep this keris a while and compare it with some real and good keris. The traditional new ones and the real old and antique ones. That's the best way to learn. To hold it in your hands and to see the differences. When you put up a small collection you have two options. Resell this keris and maybe you have to take some loss or profit when you're lucky. Or you can keep this keris in your collection as an example of the mistake we all once made. Somewhere deep hidden in the catacombs of my house, where nobody comes, you can find my mistake

16th July 2005, 06:51 PM	#11
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Rick I understand the wisdom of your words . I realize I have a lot of literature ahead of me. From what I've glimpsed so far it will be most enjoyable and informative. My thanks for all your help in joining this world of blades. Manolo

16th July 2005, 06:58 PM	#12
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Henk I was thinking that this would very well be a tourist piece. Nonetheless, it will still be a valuable learning experience. Until I walk through that part of the world and see the good traditional work I will contend myself with books and with whatever cheap pieces on ebay my current limited budget may afford In time I'll know enougth to fully appreciate these cultural marvels and to build a solid collection. - I think I'll still keep the fake Regards Manolo