Sort Of OT : Do You Ever Wonder

Rick · 5th December 2005, 06:50 PM

There is some fantastic new bladework being done these days .
I see gorgeous hand forged Mediaeval European style swords ; Andrew owns a stunning contemporary dha ; the new keris I purchase are beautifully executed examples of classic designs and pamors .

How will they fare in the arms markets and eBays of 2150 ?
Will they be recognised for the works of art that they are ; or will they suffer the fate of 19thC. revival arms ?

Comments ?

erlikhan · 5th December 2005, 07:17 PM

I bid on "B". A real antique arm or another thing must be the one which reflects something from the life of its period , a real tool serving to the usage purpose of its time according to me. Otherwise it is just a nice artistic decorative piece.

regards

Tim Simmons · 5th December 2005, 07:32 PM

I tend to agree with erlikhan. I am only interested in the objects and not just weapons, that functioned in their cultural setting and that would include a purpose for display pieces. Reproduction for reproduction sake does not really appeal to me. A modern military parade sword has to be outstanding to raise any excitement. I feel the same about repro. Also there can be a faint whiff of FANTASY

Tim

ariel · 5th December 2005, 07:53 PM

I join the above gentlemen.
The appeal of antiques comes in large part from "being there". The old blades were made for usage at the battlefield and many examples in our collections likely did their bloody duty.
The Victorian replicas of the old European swords, the Qajari Revival swords, the 20th century Caucasian kindjals mass-produced by Mudunov, Omarov etc, the new Rajastani "damascus", etc, etc, are only qualitatively different from the modern Chinese e-bay junk: although of unquestionably better workmanship, they were made to be a souvenir, a decoration, a toy; consequently they have no past behind them and no future but hanging on the wall.
Do not invest into modern Japanese swords, because 200 years down the road they will be worth their weight in....iron

.

Lee · 5th December 2005, 09:09 PM

Erlikhan is, in my opinion, absolutely correct.

The contemporary dha and new keris mentioned may well gain in value because these forms remain alive in their culture and, just as with modern Japanese swords, may continue to have significant artistic value.

Ironically, many of the European medieval style swords being made today are functionally better than the originals (such as dikonsword with a very careful copying of ancient design implemented fully aware of modern materials technology). But these are modern martial arts sporting equipment and or costume accessories. They were not there long ago to have played a part in our history, and therein lies the rub.

I recall a comment on another forum a few years ago that just blew me away, when members there opined that they would not want an antique sword because of what nasty things may have been done with it!

Good, I thought, that leaves more for me, and yet, that was part of the motivation in creating the EEWRS - to encourage collectors to pursue something *REAL*.

See the drivel at the bottom of the home page .

Andrew · 5th December 2005, 09:17 PM

I doubt newly manufactured edged weapons will ever have the identical appeal as their authentic, antique counterparts, for the reasons stated above.

However, I do not believe the quality weapons being produced today will be looked upon in the same poor light as Victorian and Qajar revival stuff. Cheap wall-hangers will be, but not the well-made modern weapons which I anticipate will have intrinsic value of their own, not really dependant on the culture they mimic.

For instance, has anyone checked the prices on "pre-owned" Howard Clark Japanese-styled swords lately? They fetch significantly more than they did when new.

How about a Vince Evans dao or shamshir?

Modern Japanese shinken often reach and exceed the prices for nihonto.

Modern weapons will be cherished, not necessarily for their form or culture of origin, but for their quality, and their makers. Any who doubt this should take a look at the Macau Museum of Art's current exhibition "Masters of Fire" which features the work of contemporary bladesmiths.

I think we are experiencing a new "golden age" of edged weapon production supported, in large part, by the internet.

Rich · 5th December 2005, 09:29 PM

I would agree with folks about modern swords; they don't have
the history or cultural connection that antiques do. I also
agree that we're having a renaissance of modern arms making.
However, long term I doubt the value of the swords will hold up for
reasons above; but, custom knives may (?) since they are quite
usable (even tho most aren't). I do see that older, used but not
abused, customs knives are selling better than the new ones by
the same maker in many instances. Could be knives won't hold
up either. Personally I prefer antiques although I do have about
a half dozen modern customs (mostly Randalls).

Rich S

Tim Simmons · 5th December 2005, 09:29 PM

That may be so but myself and I suppose many others will still see these repro things rather like collecting phone cards or beanie babies or what ever they are called? they fetch a lot of money!!!!! I am wicked

Tim , PS, I do not count modern hunting utility knives in this comment.

Rivkin · 5th December 2005, 10:30 PM

I tend to disagree. While I dislike "Revival" or "Reproduction" swords, they are not made for collectors. They are made for militant nationalists (showa being a great example) and souvenir lovers. Japanese swords (of whatever date and quality) will always be popular as long as japanese nationalism will be able to convince people that japanese culture is cool, completely unique, and their swords are absolutely the best. Today it is not a problem - from "kill bill", "last samurai" to your local karate dojo we have "senseis" spreading the word.
Caucasian kindjals made today (Asya & Kizlyar) are also not made for collectors. Chechen campaigns provide ample numbers of contracted officers looking for a souvenir. Nationalistic Cossack wannabes all want to have a “real shashka from Dagestan”. Polish nationalism is rather intact, and that’s why it is better to be a “polish sword” than a simple karabela.

Victorian reproductions are not popular due to the nearly complete destruction of european/english-american nationalism. What was the last time we had “enlish-american history month” or “white pride parade” with more than 50 attendees? And the massive outbreak of such nationalism aka third reich was accomponied by massive making of reproductions and other daggers, swords etc.

VANDOO · 5th December 2005, 09:27 PM

A LARGE PART OF COLLECTING ETHINOGRAPHIC ARMS HAS TO DO WITH THE HISTORY OF THE GROUP MAKING IT, THAT INCLUDES THEIR BELIEFS, THE WAY THE WEAPONS WERE MADE, USED AND RESPECTED BY THE OWNERS OR FEARED BY THE ADVERSARY. OUR MIND SET IS WITH THIS KIND OF GENUINE WEAPON NOT WITH A WONDERFUL WORK OF ART BY A TRUE MASTER OF METAL WORK.
THERE ARE THOSE WHO COLLECT THIS KIND OF WORK AND HAVE A LOVE FOR IT THAT RIVALS OUR OWN FOR WHAT WE COLLECT. THERE ARE COLLECTORS OF CERTIAN MAKERS LYLE COMES TO MIND I REMEMBER WHEN HE FIRST STARTED I SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT SOME OF HIS EARLY ITEMS THEY ARE WORTH BIG BUCKS NOW. THERE ARE COLLECTERS OF BUCK, BARLOW, BOKER AND OTHER POCKET KNIVES,LETTER OPENERS AND FANTASY KNIVES. THE HISTORY OF SOME OF THESE MAKERS CAN BE VERY INTERESTING ALSO, I ESPECIALLY LIKE A FIGHTING KNIFE MADE BY A MAN NAMED NICKELS ,CAN'T AFFORD ONE THOUGH

I CAN APPRECIATE THE WORK BEING DONE NOW BY THE TOP ARTISTS AND THEIR WORK WILL LIKELY APPRECIATE IN VALUE IN FUTURE. I WOULD NOT MIND HAVING SOME OF THE GREAT THINGS THEY ARE MAKEING TODAY BUT THE ONES I WOULD WANT WOULD COST MORE THAN SEVERAL OF THE WEAPONS I TRULY LOVE. SO I WILL SPEND MY MONEY ON THE GOOD OLD ITEMS AS THAT IS WHERE MY HEART AND INTREST TRULY LIES.

5th December 2005, 06:50 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Sort Of OT : Do You Ever Wonder There is some fantastic new bladework being done these days . I see gorgeous hand forged Mediaeval European style swords ; Andrew owns a stunning contemporary dha ; the new keris I purchase are beautifully executed examples of classic designs and pamors . How will they fare in the arms markets and eBays of 2150 ? Will they be recognised for the works of art that they are ; or will they suffer the fate of 19thC. revival arms ? Comments ?

5th December 2005, 07:17 PM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I bid on "B". A real antique arm or another thing must be the one which reflects something from the life of its period , a real tool serving to the usage purpose of its time according to me. Otherwise it is just a nice artistic decorative piece. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 5th December 2005 at 10:00 PM.

5th December 2005, 09:09 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 892	Erlikhan is, in my opinion, absolutely correct. Erlikhan is, in my opinion, absolutely correct. The contemporary dha and new keris mentioned may well gain in value because these forms remain alive in their culture and, just as with modern Japanese swords, may continue to have significant artistic value. Ironically, many of the European medieval style swords being made today are functionally better than the originals (such as dikonsword with a very careful copying of ancient design implemented fully aware of modern materials technology). But these are modern martial arts sporting equipment and or costume accessories. They were not there long ago to have played a part in our history, and therein lies the rub. I recall a comment on another forum a few years ago that just blew me away, when members there opined that they would not want an antique sword because of what nasty things may have been done with it! Good, I thought, that leaves more for me, and yet, that was part of the motivation in creating the EEWRS - to encourage collectors to pursue something REAL. See the drivel at the bottom of the home page .

5th December 2005, 09:29 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	That may be so but myself and I suppose many others will still see these repro things rather like collecting phone cards or beanie babies or what ever they are called? they fetch a lot of money!!!!! I am wicked Tim , PS, I do not count modern hunting utility knives in this comment. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 5th December 2005 at 09:38 PM. Reason: Just thought I had better mention the hunting knives

5th December 2005, 10:30 PM	#9
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	my controvercial reply I tend to disagree. While I dislike "Revival" or "Reproduction" swords, they are not made for collectors. They are made for militant nationalists (showa being a great example) and souvenir lovers. Japanese swords (of whatever date and quality) will always be popular as long as japanese nationalism will be able to convince people that japanese culture is cool, completely unique, and their swords are absolutely the best. Today it is not a problem - from "kill bill", "last samurai" to your local karate dojo we have "senseis" spreading the word. Caucasian kindjals made today (Asya & Kizlyar) are also not made for collectors. Chechen campaigns provide ample numbers of contracted officers looking for a souvenir. Nationalistic Cossack wannabes all want to have a “real shashka from Dagestan”. Polish nationalism is rather intact, and that’s why it is better to be a “polish sword” than a simple karabela. Victorian reproductions are not popular due to the nearly complete destruction of european/english-american nationalism. What was the last time we had “enlish-american history month” or “white pride parade” with more than 50 attendees? And the massive outbreak of such nationalism aka third reich was accomponied by massive making of reproductions and other daggers, swords etc.

5th December 2005, 07:32 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I tend to agree with erlikhan. I am only interested in the objects and not just weapons, that functioned in their cultural setting and that would include a purpose for display pieces. Reproduction for reproduction sake does not really appeal to me. A modern military parade sword has to be outstanding to raise any excitement. I feel the same about repro. Also there can be a faint whiff of FANTASY Tim

5th December 2005, 07:53 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I join the above gentlemen. The appeal of antiques comes in large part from "being there". The old blades were made for usage at the battlefield and many examples in our collections likely did their bloody duty. The Victorian replicas of the old European swords, the Qajari Revival swords, the 20th century Caucasian kindjals mass-produced by Mudunov, Omarov etc, the new Rajastani "damascus", etc, etc, are only qualitatively different from the modern Chinese e-bay junk: although of unquestionably better workmanship, they were made to be a souvenir, a decoration, a toy; consequently they have no past behind them and no future but hanging on the wall. Do not invest into modern Japanese swords, because 200 years down the road they will be worth their weight in....iron .

5th December 2005, 09:17 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I doubt newly manufactured edged weapons will ever have the identical appeal as their authentic, antique counterparts, for the reasons stated above. However, I do not believe the quality weapons being produced today will be looked upon in the same poor light as Victorian and Qajar revival stuff. Cheap wall-hangers will be, but not the well-made modern weapons which I anticipate will have intrinsic value of their own, not really dependant on the culture they mimic. For instance, has anyone checked the prices on "pre-owned" Howard Clark Japanese-styled swords lately? They fetch significantly more than they did when new. How about a Vince Evans dao or shamshir? Modern Japanese shinken often reach and exceed the prices for nihonto. Modern weapons will be cherished, not necessarily for their form or culture of origin, but for their quality, and their makers. Any who doubt this should take a look at the Macau Museum of Art's current exhibition "Masters of Fire" which features the work of contemporary bladesmiths. I think we are experiencing a new "golden age" of edged weapon production supported, in large part, by the internet.

5th December 2005, 09:29 PM	#7
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I would agree with folks about modern swords; they don't have the history or cultural connection that antiques do. I also agree that we're having a renaissance of modern arms making. However, long term I doubt the value of the swords will hold up for reasons above; but, custom knives may (?) since they are quite usable (even tho most aren't). I do see that older, used but not abused, customs knives are selling better than the new ones by the same maker in many instances. Could be knives won't hold up either. Personally I prefer antiques although I do have about a half dozen modern customs (mostly Randalls). Rich S

5th December 2005, 09:27 PM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A LARGE PART OF COLLECTING ETHINOGRAPHIC ARMS HAS TO DO WITH THE HISTORY OF THE GROUP MAKING IT, THAT INCLUDES THEIR BELIEFS, THE WAY THE WEAPONS WERE MADE, USED AND RESPECTED BY THE OWNERS OR FEARED BY THE ADVERSARY. OUR MIND SET IS WITH THIS KIND OF GENUINE WEAPON NOT WITH A WONDERFUL WORK OF ART BY A TRUE MASTER OF METAL WORK. THERE ARE THOSE WHO COLLECT THIS KIND OF WORK AND HAVE A LOVE FOR IT THAT RIVALS OUR OWN FOR WHAT WE COLLECT. THERE ARE COLLECTORS OF CERTIAN MAKERS LYLE COMES TO MIND I REMEMBER WHEN HE FIRST STARTED I SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT SOME OF HIS EARLY ITEMS THEY ARE WORTH BIG BUCKS NOW. THERE ARE COLLECTERS OF BUCK, BARLOW, BOKER AND OTHER POCKET KNIVES,LETTER OPENERS AND FANTASY KNIVES. THE HISTORY OF SOME OF THESE MAKERS CAN BE VERY INTERESTING ALSO, I ESPECIALLY LIKE A FIGHTING KNIFE MADE BY A MAN NAMED NICKELS ,CAN'T AFFORD ONE THOUGH I CAN APPRECIATE THE WORK BEING DONE NOW BY THE TOP ARTISTS AND THEIR WORK WILL LIKELY APPRECIATE IN VALUE IN FUTURE. I WOULD NOT MIND HAVING SOME OF THE GREAT THINGS THEY ARE MAKEING TODAY BUT THE ONES I WOULD WANT WOULD COST MORE THAN SEVERAL OF THE WEAPONS I TRULY LOVE. SO I WILL SPEND MY MONEY ON THE GOOD OLD ITEMS AS THAT IS WHERE MY HEART AND INTREST TRULY LIES.