cultures moderation tips for keris lovers

purwacarita · 30th August 2005, 01:38 PM

Background story, ...I must start with actual problem that might catch you a victim also.

Once upon a time there was a keris (mahar)ed at Rp.10mil, a guy came with a paranormal who will test the isoteric aspect of the blade. The paranormal then advised to the guy that it was a keris of strong isoteric properties and so... It was dealed and money was given WITH a warranty of whole refund if the keris was to be returned without damage.

After a few time, the guy brought the keris to local priest for cleansing, and the priest said that the keris was a new one and did not have any isoteric properties. The guy seemed to believe the priest more than the paranormal.

Well, the keris was not cleansed and the guy would like to return the keris for refund. The paranormal disagreed as it was handed over under term 'mahar', the dealer received the keris and promised refund at the time he SOLD the keris to other people because he lacked of money at that time. The guy believed the dealer and the keris was once again in the hand of the dealer.

And as time goes by, the dealer never again show up, changed his mobile phone number. The guy lost both his money and keris, ...and the paranormal said that it was his karma for selling (mahar)ed keris.

Damn.

Rick · 30th August 2005, 02:23 PM

This stuff is all too common in the world of keris dealing .
As a distinguished acquaintance once told me : buy the keris ,not the story .

nechesh · 30th August 2005, 10:30 PM

It sounds to me as if the paranormal might have been working with the dealer.

I have to wonder, if the person buying a keris cannot "feel" the energy of a certain keris for himself, if they are not sensitive to the esorteric properties, what is the purpose of asking a paranormal to tell you what you SHOULD "feel" from it. What good is the esorteric energy of a keris if the owner cannot attune himself to it? Living a spiritual and mystical life is a path, one that requires work. People like the gentleman in your story ALLOW themselves to be victimized by surrendering their own spiritual selves to paranormals, psychics and dukkuns and allowing others to dictate to them what they need to learn to sense and feel on their own. While i do believe that there are psychics and dukkuns who are both honest and sincere, there is a very long history of charlatans working this side of the street for a mighty profit.

John · 31st August 2005, 05:53 AM

One peculiar thing about people is that it's really not a keris or object they are buying or looking for but the inherent "power" of it and there are those who are quite willing to pay for them. I guess many would know what I mean. I know a certain guy who pays tens of thousands of ringgits collecting Siamese talismans from Thailand and no doubt there are ones looking for keris "powers". And arising from the "power" commercialism there's this familiar "story" phenomenon.

nechesh · 31st August 2005, 11:39 AM

Hi John. I certainly know what you mean about people who are out to buy power, but i'm afraid it's a bit like what the Beatles said about love, you really can't.

There is no easy road or shortcut to accumulating spiritual power in ones life. It must be earned. But this is probably why these fast talking keris dealers are able to continue fooling people. Our spieces has a tendency to believe what it wants to believe. But those looking to buy spiritual balance in their lives are bound to lose.

Ian · 31st August 2005, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Once upon a time there was a keris (mahar)ed at Rp.10mil,

Purwacarita:

Am I correct in inferring that the person in your story paid the equivalent of about 1,000 US dollars for this keris only to find out it was a recently made piece? And then lost not only his money but the keris too?

That sounds like a very painful lesson.

Ian.

Boedhi Adhitya · 1st September 2005, 06:46 AM

That's what would be happened if we treated the keris as amulet / talismanic devices. The Javanese elders had warn us, the Javaneses, by this saying :"Janjine dudu jimat-kemat, ananging agunging Gusti kang pinuji", that means "The promise was not amulet, but to praise The Great Lord" Anyone who understand the keris-making process will know that empu said nothing during the forging, but prayer to God. Keris worth more than amulet.

Without enough knowledges, the bad keris dealers/dukuns in Java will eat you alive, if you looking kerises on them !

Trust no ones, even me

Mr. Purwacarita, if you or your friends really interested in keris and live in Java, you might go to discussion session held by keris' devotee associations. In Jakarta would be the Damar Taji, in Semarang would be the Puri Wiji, and in Jogjakarta would be the Pametri Wiji. IMHO, they are trustworthy associations. You might learn something, but remember, just use your common senses.

best regards

Battara · 1st September 2005, 06:58 AM

You know, Boedhi Adhitya has a good point. The same is true of Japanese nihonto sword collecting. Getting together with those who collect, ie. forums (like this one), associations, etc, will help us all on not getting taken. I had a Japanese piece that I discovered was a Paul Chen and was able to get my money back (due to the honest dealer and the feedback of the nihonto guys on the swordforum.com).

purwacarita · 1st September 2005, 12:22 PM

Thankx for your (culturic?) tips. It is the fact that most people in Indonesia buy keris to acquire the isoteric properties inside, rather than to have the physical keris itself. Most of them still think of keris dealers are from sacred, sincere communities and that what makes them, ...gullible. I've been very concerned but I don't want you guys think I have vendetta against any dealers. For a value of Rp.10mil (or more), people will want the best keris with the best isoteric properties feasible, and for the same reason people will want to say their keris have all the properties required.

Yes Ian, it is around the same value.

Here's my first tip.

Ask the question to the dealer, "Why the keris is mahar-ed at some value of money, instead of anything else?"

You can understand the meaning of mahar in cases like,
- the bearer realizing the perishing energy of his keris and knew that you're the only one who could reverse the process, but he thinks you are not willing to help unless the keris is yours. So the bearer tells you that he will give to you if you promise to take care of the problem.

- the bearer is in deep social trouble and you are the one who could help him. So resentfully you tell him that your favor will cost him his keris.

- the bearer is about to die without successors and you are whom he will entrust his keris with. So the bearer give it to you after he takes your oath.

- you are competing with your brother to acquire a divine keris of your master, and your master performs contests to decide who will be descended the keris.

- you envy the beauty of keris belongs to your brother, your master knows it and promise to give his if only you could accomplish certain tasks, like completing your current level of internal martial art.

- the bearer just give away his keris to you for free as he knows how insanely you love keris, and you politely give something in return, but all you have in your pocket is money of small buck.

- some other things I'll add later.

The bottom line is that mahar is not (the other more polite) language of money. It is a pre-conditions met before you can have what you want, and in many cases the requirement is your commitment. So when the keris is mahar-ed at certain amount of money, it is not mahar-ed at all. It is just for sale

...where common-sense public business policies applies.

nechesh · 1st September 2005, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purwacarita

For a value of Rp.10mil (or more), people will want the best keris with the best isoteric properties feasible, and for the same reason people will want to say their keris have all the properties required.

Just a reality check here. For $1000 USD it is perhaps reasonable to expect the "best keris" that has been NEWLY made in Madura.And i will state this again, some of the finest keris ever crafted are being made TODAY. As for esoteric (i assume this is the word you intend

) properties though, such a keris would probably have none.

But fine old keris pusaka such as of the quality which Boedhi Adhitya has been speaking of (which would better qualify for the term "best keris") can cost TENS of thousands of dollars. Some are even worth $100,000 or more. So when someone allows themselves to believe they are receiving a keris of this quality for merely $1000 they are really only fooling themselves. But this is how con men work. They convince you that you are receiving an impossible deal and in a sense, it is the buyers own greed which allows him to believe such a thing is possible. Deep inside he knows better. If a deal seems impossible it probably is.

Now, this doesn't mean that you can't build a very nice collection of nice old keris at a much lower cost. They won't be royal court pieces that belonged to prince so-and-so, but IMO that doesn't necessarily mean they will be void of esoteric properties. I will not argue Boedhi Adhitya's position because i think he is absolutely right from the perspective from which he speaks, but i believe that the concept of keris pusaka exists on a different level outside of the royal courts and that many keris conceived for the more common folk were made to carry esoteric energies as well. Once more, it goes back to the old adage, "Buy the keris, not the story". Your inner being will tell you whether or not a keris is right for you, no dukkuns involved (though i must admit i do like the incense

)

Alam Shah · 3rd September 2005, 02:49 AM

I love aromatic incense as well. Not for my kerises but for for myself.

It has uplifting properties and can influence and change moods...

Rick and Nechesh are right, "Buy the keris and not the story".
The story is a bonus, good for story-telling with friends.

purwacarita · 3rd September 2005, 03:49 AM

Newbees got themselves cheated in fact by those who they respect as trustworthy. As because trustworthy people knew how much money they could make by fooling one's belief who does not possess adequate comprehension of their culture, and then left their victims financially hurt, degraded faith and got pessimistic towards their own traditions.

Very harmful to culture, no?

Yes necesh, you are possibly right when keris is looked from money value perspective, and probably not. Moeny value perspective is not all about keris. What I meant when I first start this thread is to gather culturic perspectives from different cultures, and the "buy the keris, not the story" thing sounds more realistic than culturic.

And as a cultured person, it is my duty oh,

my pleasure to contribute and shed light to those newbees, not because I have excessive knowledge so I can spare some little.

Well, cultured Indonesia keris devotees, ...your tips, please?!

Culture could not be built based on deception of money making machine. Second tip.

Keris is a symbol of something. Ask question to yourself,"What in you will be symbolized by your dreamy keris?"

In doing so, you will not mistakenly acquire keris to symbolize unnecessary things of yours like,
- your wealth, because your money already show its perfectly.
- your health, because your diet already show it perfectly also.
- your status, because your tax is the best symbol of it.
- your greed or arrogance, because your attitude reflects that better.
- your power, over what?
- your lust, ...be rational, it does not have to be symbolized.
- etc.

nechesh · 3rd September 2005, 06:52 AM

Sorry purwacarita, i was not looking at keris from the money perspective, just trying to make folks realize that $1000 USD is a drop in the bucket towards the cost of a truly fine old keris pusaka. Certainly there may be other ways to obtain such a keris that does not demand money, but realistically, that is the most common way keris change hands these days. Yes, there is a great deal more to the keris than it's material value.
Perhaps you can be a little more direct with us. What, for instance, does the keris represent in YOUR life?
I don't believe i or anyone was debating that the "culture could not be built based on deception of money making machine." You began this thread by talking about a friend who was ripped off by an unscrupuous dealer. I think then it was you who brought money into this discussion.

If you are looking for "culturic perspectives" then i think you need to get a bit more specific and define exactly what you are looking for. "Buy the keris, not the story" is a direct response to your original posting. I guess i don't really know what you mean by "culturic perspectives from different cultures".

You wrote: "And as a cultured person, it is my duty oh, my pleasure to contribute and shed light to those newbees, not because I have excessive knowledge so I can spare some little."

This would be nice, i always like a bit of light shed. I realize there are difficulties in the languages and i commend you for you skills so far, but frankly i have found your posts somewhat cryptic, as if you are not quite saying what it is you really want to say about keris. If you have knowledge, please share it.

purwacarita · 3rd September 2005, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

What, for instance, does the keris represent in YOUR life?

Hi nechesh. Patience, ...a few tips are coming. Yet I'm not the only keris devotee in this forum, however you seem to understand the "cryptic drop in the bucket" culture of Indonesia keris.

nechesh · 3rd September 2005, 04:48 PM

Yes Purwacarita, i understand the " 'cryptic drop in the bucket' culture of Indonesia keris" quite well, but frankly, in my experience (at least as it applies to contributions on this forum) it never amounts to anything other than a lot of hot air.

I trust that in this example it will not be the case.

"Indonesian keris devotees" such as our brother Boedhi Adhitya have already written quite clearly and eloquently of the subject of modern mysticism and the keris, so perhaps it is your turn to reveal your "tips" more clearly. You say it is your " duty oh, (your) pleasure to contribute and shed light to those newbees" , but right now your sun seems to be covered in the clouds.

Rick · 3rd September 2005, 04:51 PM

I'm getting deja vu all over again .

We have been down this road so many times in the years that I have been moderating here .

So while we are waiting for answers I thought I'd share this new keris with you all .
Yes , from Madura .
I don't collect keris to accrue power , but I do believe that ALL fine works of art regardless of culture are prayers in and of themselves and that they are expressions of the divine nature of man .

nechesh · 3rd September 2005, 05:20 PM

Well Rick, as i said in perhaps a few more words in e-mail, WOOF!!

This is a fine example of the high technical quality of work which is available from modern keris makers and your comment that "ALL fine works of art regardless of culture are prayers in and of themselves and that they are expressions of the divine nature of man." is well taken.
The pamor control on this piece is exquisite and the beauty of it certainly inspires and reflects a bit of the divine in us all.

Mick · 3rd September 2005, 06:10 PM

Rick

Excellent piece. There are very few pamor pendoks out there. Whoever made this ensamble is keeping the art of pamor work up to it's highest standard.

Alam Shah · 4th September 2005, 03:00 AM

Hi Rick,

Love the pendok more than the keris pamor. Beautiful...btw, where did you get yours?

Rick · 4th September 2005, 03:25 AM

From the Postman .

purwacarita · 6th September 2005, 06:46 AM

Hi Rick. It is beautiful fine keris, ...a few hundred years from now it will be beautiful fine old keris. Seems like the maker made it with intention to reflect its own era rather than chemically corrode the blade to make it looks old for dojo vu. Beautiful and honest keris.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Certainly there may be other ways to obtain such a keris that does not demand money, but realistically, that is the most common way keris change hands these days.

Hi nechesh. I'm glad that Indonesia keris have fans abroad whose keris change hands by money. I don't have problem with that. But in Indonesia, it could only be done without forgetting the culture. Culture is still the reason why Indonesian acquires keris, sorry, it is not the money. Such stories told when exchanging the keris is not a bonus after all, and surprisingly is most common told by those who considered trustworthy, so when it's phoney, it's destructible to the culture. Like discussing how the Greeks took advantage of Trojan culture to a victory. It feels creepy to say that the Trojan horse is most common worth the plunder, and still I don't think it's right to conclude to "I fear the Greeks even when they bring gifts" thing. I don't know the latin, but I believe it is the right translation. Well, ...as so many uncountable cities and so many uncountable horses, it will be the challenge to burn the mysterious men in the horses before the horses taken into the cities. For example, keris dapur Jaran Guyang luk 7 is said good for sex driving energy source, and so whoever needs for sex drive should acquire it. Or unyeng Asmaradana in handle that said good for polygamy. What an intention of the mpu, who supposed to have a straight spiritual path.

It's not easy to put right this wide spread misconceptions besides above dapur and unyeng may symbolize other sacred meanings. So the dapur and unyeng are better sacrificed to be meant as the misconception, except that it only in most mild sarcastic gurindam to be read, need more sex drive, huh? Settle down yourself before you're settled down, by death, AIDS, or anything bad you deserve, as the blade will loaded with spirit of transquality. Very constructive.

The sun never covered in the clouds, it always shine upon anything in its solar system. The earth rotates and the night blames the sun of running out. When earth covered with cloud of prejudice, please look if you have ignited incense in your mind whose smoke blocks your view to the sun. The third sun is coming from another galaxy.

It's already the third! See?

How complicated will you classify keris? More complicated means that you will make yourself difficult to find your dreamy keris.

It is not a challenge to others who has different classifications. Please understand that it is because we are plural that makes the richess of our country.

I classify keris according to my group as follows,
- kadutan, is to see keris as weapon
- pusaka, is to see keris as historical property
- pertimi, is to see keris as spiritual property

The 3 classifications are overlapping one another. You need to make a priority list of the 3 as they are not hierarchical. For example, kadutan is your highest priority, than you should look for properties that will construct a dreamy weapon of your life, inspect for blade metal materials, etc. But once the keris is made, and keep you accompanied for tens of years, it has had historical properties, or it may have saved your life, then it becomes pusaka.

Or when pusaka is the highest in your priority list, then ask yourself, whose history will you treasure with keris, or is it really important if you treasure the history of the President of RI by acquiring his keris for your ego, ...of perdikan?

It is said that if the bearer is committed to something, the spirit of his commitment would induce his keris, though the keris is only either pusaka or kadutan. The induced energy when sealed by the priest could make it lasts longer or stronger. The induced keris is called pertimi. It is the spirit of commitment of the bearer what is in keris, not his soul, and that commitment should be paid by the same commitment of the next bearer under term of mahar, to keep the spirit alive. And the spirit in keris will also influence your spirit, and your spirit will influence your life. In some martial groups, this spiritual keris is then upgraded to supranatural keris, but the keris is still called pertimi.

If pertimi is your first priority, you should look for places where priests could raise spirit of ordinary non-martial men to perform a show which they will be immuned to blade, in full view of public.

In martial world, keris is also gurindam over a remark of remembrance. To remind you of your commitment, or to remind you how vulnerable you are inspite of your mighty virtues. The Bugiswise has it also, to remind the bearer away from thapeler or thalaso. I think that culture will be established after many searches within, but I don't mind if you will take mine, choose which part you like as you consider will make yours stronger. Take it, it's free.

nechesh · 6th September 2005, 12:00 PM

PURWACARITA WROTE: I'm glad that Indonesia keris have fans abroad whose keris change hands by money. I don't have problem with that. But in Indonesia, it could only be done without forgetting the culture. Culture is still the reason why Indonesian acquires keris, sorry, it is not the money.

I am afraid you have misunderstood me, my friend. No where do i suggest that the REASON people in Indonesia acquire keris is money. I am not suggesting that the culture is forgotten and that keris in Indonesia are merely a commodity these days. Still, it is the METHOD by which most people, even in Indonesia, acquire their keris. I do understand the term mahar (dowery) and that within the culture many Indonesians will also accept certain responsiblities that come with the ownership of certain keris. Money, BTW, is nothing more than a representation of energy to be exchanged. There is nothing intrinsically evil about it. It represents the hard work of the person who holds it and can be used to obtain things they want or need in life. It represents the hard work they did to acquire it (in most cases

). Regardless of mahar, i believe it is still the most common way people acquire keris these days, even in Indonesia. I brought up the money issue originally because of your statement that people in Indonesia expect the "best" keris for $1000USD. I know for a fact that Indonesian collectors (for lack of a better word) often pay far more (in money) than that for what might be termed the "best" keris. This isn't meant to imply that they value the keris only for it's monetary value.

Purwacarita, could you also please define the terms perdikan and gurindam? Thanks.
BTW, thanks also for the lesson in astronomy.

purwacarita · 8th September 2005, 01:12 PM

Hi nechesh. You said you understand the 'cryptic drop in the bucket' culture of Indonesia keris" quite well, ...friend.

Rick · 8th September 2005, 02:36 PM

Hi Purwacarita , thank you for your complimentary comments , let's take the new keris I purchased as an example .
I bought it because it is a beautiful example of a kadutan . When I pass and it goes to my Son it will then be kadutan/pusaka , yes ?

Now another question ; if I had the resources to comission a keris with certain esoteric properties made by one of the last empus in Jawa capable of doing this and he requested money from me then I have indeed 'purchased' the keris , no ?

nechesh · 8th September 2005, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi nechesh. You said you understand the 'cryptic drop in the bucket' culture of Indonesia keris" quite well, ...friend.

So.....does that mean you are NOT going to answer my simple question about the definition of the terms you have used?

purwacarita · 10th September 2005, 10:52 AM

Hi Rick. Your kadutan not necessarily become pusaka of your son, unless you tell your son the experience you've through with the kadutan and how your kadutan became so useful for you and how you love and treasure it as pusaka. If you don't pass the message, your pusaka becomes kadutan of your son. If your son does not respect your message, it is not a pusaka of his.

No priest will sell esoteric properties. You can only buy new kadutan, or antique keris which its historical and spiritual properties had been lost or neglected. ...But if the empu could make it pertimi and ask the money from you, I hope my explanation to nechesh can answer it perfectly.

Why chopped liver? Now go back to what, stabbed wall?

Hi nechesh. I am afraid you have misunderstood me, my friend.

Until today for so many years I have lived in Indonesia as the citizen, there are still many things about Indonesia miss my understanding, as you know, Indonesia is rich of cultures. I can not understand them all and so I hope I could learn some from you in this forum.

Besides, though you are not admit your last posts of money perspectives, for once again your newer post reflected that perfectly. Well, ...there is nothing wrong with it because you are from culture of capitalism. Capitalism is not bad, it most results positively to freedom, independence etc. Mahar culture at the other hand most results to loyalty, commitment, etc.

If you notice there different of these 2 cultures in keris. Capitalism will need the guy work for money before he can buy keris. Mahar will need the guy commitment after the keris is given. So keris in capitalism will require the result of ones in the past(CE:money), while keris in mahar will require the result of ones in the future(CE:discipline, responsibility, loyalty, hard-work, etc). Keris in capitalism will make the bearer usually get more self confidence, while keris in mahar may make the bearer schizoprenic. Maybe you can moderate 2 cultures to gain the best method of acquiring keris.

Buying and Selling is trade of both ones outcome of the past. Mahar is trade of ones outcome in the future and other in the present.

purwacarita · 10th September 2005, 02:31 PM

I can't believe I'm the only Indonesian posting. Are you still there enjoy reading or you are afraid to disagree my dynamic posts?

Rick · 10th September 2005, 04:38 PM

Hi Purwacarita , thank you for explaining to me the questions I have asked of you .

As for the 'chopped liver' business it was a self deprecating joke on my part which Andrew and Mark picked up on and they had a little fun changing my avatar . Afterwards I changed it back to the original Moro kris interpretation which is supposed to express the dynamic energy inherent in the weapon .

I am not sure why our other Indonesian Members have not responded to your posts ; I certainly hope they will . I also hope that it is OK for non Indonesians to participate in this thread as well .

nechesh · 10th September 2005, 05:18 PM

Purwacarita, i am a little confused at this point. You began this thread with a story about a fellow Indonesian who obtained a keris that was "mahared" at Rp, 10 mil.(approx. $1000 USD). This seems to be a common practice in Indonesia as i have been on many websites from the area that SELL keris this way with the PRICE labelled as "mahar". I am aware that there are no doubt still Indonesians who may be fortunate enough to recieve a keris as pusaka from a relative, but is this truly the most COMMON way in which keris change hands TODAY in Indonesia or is it more likely to occur as it did with your friend in the story?
BTW, the use of a local currency to obtain goods is not an invention of Capitalism. Communist and Socialist countries also use currency and even so-called primitive cultures commonly found particular items (shells, beads, etc.) which served as a form of money. On a purely idealistic level i do tend to agree with you that "Capitalism is not bad, it most results positively to freedom, independence etc. Mahar culture at the other hand most results to loyalty, commitment, etc." , but in practice i am not convinced it actually works out that way. And with great respect to the long histories and cultures of the Indonesian people you are CURRENTLY living in a very Capitalistic society. People are people after all, and whether they are capable of maintaining any commitment to the spirit and nature of the keris they have obtained is probably more determined by their personal understanding of "Will" than the manner in which they obtained their keris. From where i sit it is basically impossible for me to receive a keris through mahar. I am therefore forced into using money to obtain my keris. This is not, believe me, because of any great love or appreciation for the system of Capitalism. Yet when i receive a keris i do my best to pay respect to it an try to determine the "will" of the blade, if any. If i understand you correctly it is your stance that a keris which is sold for money no longer holds any esorteric properties. If that is your belief i have personally found it to be untrue. Many bought keris still resonate strongly and i don't need psychics, dukkuns or Coggins machines to prove it to me.

I am still really interested in your definitions of the terms perdikan and gurindam. It can only be helpful to the points you are trying to make if we understand all your words.

Rick · 10th September 2005, 08:07 PM

Purwacarita , in rereading this thread I find that at least three people (keris enthusiasts) from your area have responded to your post .

Perhaps they have said all they wish on this subject .

Now I must ask , if your views on the nature and transferrence of keris from one person to another is not about money at all ; why then is your avatar money itself ?
I must admit to being as confused about this as you must be about my "Kris stabbing a wall" .

30th August 2005, 01:38 PM	#1
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	cultures moderation tips for keris lovers Background story, ...I must start with actual problem that might catch you a victim also. Once upon a time there was a keris (mahar)ed at Rp.10mil, a guy came with a paranormal who will test the isoteric aspect of the blade. The paranormal then advised to the guy that it was a keris of strong isoteric properties and so... It was dealed and money was given WITH a warranty of whole refund if the keris was to be returned without damage. After a few time, the guy brought the keris to local priest for cleansing, and the priest said that the keris was a new one and did not have any isoteric properties. The guy seemed to believe the priest more than the paranormal. Well, the keris was not cleansed and the guy would like to return the keris for refund. The paranormal disagreed as it was handed over under term 'mahar', the dealer received the keris and promised refund at the time he SOLD the keris to other people because he lacked of money at that time. The guy believed the dealer and the keris was once again in the hand of the dealer. And as time goes by, the dealer never again show up, changed his mobile phone number. The guy lost both his money and keris, ...and the paranormal said that it was his karma for selling (mahar)ed keris. Damn.

30th August 2005, 02:23 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	All Too Common This stuff is all too common in the world of keris dealing . As a distinguished acquaintance once told me : buy the keris ,not the story .

31st August 2005, 05:53 AM	#4
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Buying "power" One peculiar thing about people is that it's really not a keris or object they are buying or looking for but the inherent "power" of it and there are those who are quite willing to pay for them. I guess many would know what I mean. I know a certain guy who pays tens of thousands of ringgits collecting Siamese talismans from Thailand and no doubt there are ones looking for keris "powers". And arising from the "power" commercialism there's this familiar "story" phenomenon.

1st September 2005, 12:22 PM	#9
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Mahar Thankx for your (culturic?) tips. It is the fact that most people in Indonesia buy keris to acquire the isoteric properties inside, rather than to have the physical keris itself. Most of them still think of keris dealers are from sacred, sincere communities and that what makes them, ...gullible. I've been very concerned but I don't want you guys think I have vendetta against any dealers. For a value of Rp.10mil (or more), people will want the best keris with the best isoteric properties feasible, and for the same reason people will want to say their keris have all the properties required. Yes Ian, it is around the same value. Here's my first tip. Ask the question to the dealer, "Why the keris is mahar-ed at some value of money, instead of anything else?" You can understand the meaning of mahar in cases like, - the bearer realizing the perishing energy of his keris and knew that you're the only one who could reverse the process, but he thinks you are not willing to help unless the keris is yours. So the bearer tells you that he will give to you if you promise to take care of the problem. - the bearer is in deep social trouble and you are the one who could help him. So resentfully you tell him that your favor will cost him his keris. - the bearer is about to die without successors and you are whom he will entrust his keris with. So the bearer give it to you after he takes your oath. - you are competing with your brother to acquire a divine keris of your master, and your master performs contests to decide who will be descended the keris. - you envy the beauty of keris belongs to your brother, your master knows it and promise to give his if only you could accomplish certain tasks, like completing your current level of internal martial art. - the bearer just give away his keris to you for free as he knows how insanely you love keris, and you politely give something in return, but all you have in your pocket is money of small buck. - some other things I'll add later. The bottom line is that mahar is not (the other more polite) language of money. It is a pre-conditions met before you can have what you want, and in many cases the requirement is your commitment. So when the keris is mahar-ed at certain amount of money, it is not mahar-ed at all. It is just for sale ...where common-sense public business policies applies.

3rd September 2005, 02:49 AM	#11
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Incense... I love aromatic incense as well. Not for my kerises but for for myself. It has uplifting properties and can influence and change moods... Rick and Nechesh are right, "Buy the keris and not the story". The story is a bonus, good for story-telling with friends. Last edited by Alam Shah; 3rd September 2005 at 04:23 AM.

30th August 2005, 10:30 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	It sounds to me as if the paranormal might have been working with the dealer. I have to wonder, if the person buying a keris cannot "feel" the energy of a certain keris for himself, if they are not sensitive to the esorteric properties, what is the purpose of asking a paranormal to tell you what you SHOULD "feel" from it. What good is the esorteric energy of a keris if the owner cannot attune himself to it? Living a spiritual and mystical life is a path, one that requires work. People like the gentleman in your story ALLOW themselves to be victimized by surrendering their own spiritual selves to paranormals, psychics and dukkuns and allowing others to dictate to them what they need to learn to sense and feel on their own. While i do believe that there are psychics and dukkuns who are both honest and sincere, there is a very long history of charlatans working this side of the street for a mighty profit.

31st August 2005, 11:39 AM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi John. I certainly know what you mean about people who are out to buy power, but i'm afraid it's a bit like what the Beatles said about love, you really can't. There is no easy road or shortcut to accumulating spiritual power in ones life. It must be earned. But this is probably why these fast talking keris dealers are able to continue fooling people. Our spieces has a tendency to believe what it wants to believe. But those looking to buy spiritual balance in their lives are bound to lose.

1st September 2005, 06:46 AM	#7
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	That's what would be happened if we treated the keris as amulet / talismanic devices. The Javanese elders had warn us, the Javaneses, by this saying :"Janjine dudu jimat-kemat, ananging agunging Gusti kang pinuji", that means "The promise was not amulet, but to praise The Great Lord" Anyone who understand the keris-making process will know that empu said nothing during the forging, but prayer to God. Keris worth more than amulet. Without enough knowledges, the bad keris dealers/dukuns in Java will eat you alive, if you looking kerises on them ! Trust no ones, even me Mr. Purwacarita, if you or your friends really interested in keris and live in Java, you might go to discussion session held by keris' devotee associations. In Jakarta would be the Damar Taji, in Semarang would be the Puri Wiji, and in Jogjakarta would be the Pametri Wiji. IMHO, they are trustworthy associations. You might learn something, but remember, just use your common senses. best regards

1st September 2005, 06:58 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	You know, Boedhi Adhitya has a good point. The same is true of Japanese nihonto sword collecting. Getting together with those who collect, ie. forums (like this one), associations, etc, will help us all on not getting taken. I had a Japanese piece that I discovered was a Paul Chen and was able to get my money back (due to the honest dealer and the feedback of the nihonto guys on the swordforum.com).

3rd September 2005, 03:49 AM	#12
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Symbolizing Newbees got themselves cheated in fact by those who they respect as trustworthy. As because trustworthy people knew how much money they could make by fooling one's belief who does not possess adequate comprehension of their culture, and then left their victims financially hurt, degraded faith and got pessimistic towards their own traditions. Very harmful to culture, no? Yes necesh, you are possibly right when keris is looked from money value perspective, and probably not. Moeny value perspective is not all about keris. What I meant when I first start this thread is to gather culturic perspectives from different cultures, and the "buy the keris, not the story" thing sounds more realistic than culturic. And as a cultured person, it is my duty oh, my pleasure to contribute and shed light to those newbees, not because I have excessive knowledge so I can spare some little. Well, cultured Indonesia keris devotees, ...your tips, please?! Culture could not be built based on deception of money making machine. Second tip. Keris is a symbol of something. Ask question to yourself,"What in you will be symbolized by your dreamy keris?" In doing so, you will not mistakenly acquire keris to symbolize unnecessary things of yours like, - your wealth, because your money already show its perfectly. - your health, because your diet already show it perfectly also. - your status, because your tax is the best symbol of it. - your greed or arrogance, because your attitude reflects that better. - your power, over what? - your lust, ...be rational, it does not have to be symbolized. - etc.

3rd September 2005, 06:52 AM	#13
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry purwacarita, i was not looking at keris from the money perspective, just trying to make folks realize that $1000 USD is a drop in the bucket towards the cost of a truly fine old keris pusaka. Certainly there may be other ways to obtain such a keris that does not demand money, but realistically, that is the most common way keris change hands these days. Yes, there is a great deal more to the keris than it's material value. Perhaps you can be a little more direct with us. What, for instance, does the keris represent in YOUR life? I don't believe i or anyone was debating that the "culture could not be built based on deception of money making machine." You began this thread by talking about a friend who was ripped off by an unscrupuous dealer. I think then it was you who brought money into this discussion. If you are looking for "culturic perspectives" then i think you need to get a bit more specific and define exactly what you are looking for. "Buy the keris, not the story" is a direct response to your original posting. I guess i don't really know what you mean by "culturic perspectives from different cultures". You wrote: "And as a cultured person, it is my duty oh, my pleasure to contribute and shed light to those newbees, not because I have excessive knowledge so I can spare some little." This would be nice, i always like a bit of light shed. I realize there are difficulties in the languages and i commend you for you skills so far, but frankly i have found your posts somewhat cryptic, as if you are not quite saying what it is you really want to say about keris. If you have knowledge, please share it.

3rd September 2005, 04:48 PM	#15
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yes Purwacarita, i understand the " 'cryptic drop in the bucket' culture of Indonesia keris" quite well, but frankly, in my experience (at least as it applies to contributions on this forum) it never amounts to anything other than a lot of hot air. I trust that in this example it will not be the case. "Indonesian keris devotees" such as our brother Boedhi Adhitya have already written quite clearly and eloquently of the subject of modern mysticism and the keris, so perhaps it is your turn to reveal your "tips" more clearly. You say it is your " duty oh, (your) pleasure to contribute and shed light to those newbees" , but right now your sun seems to be covered in the clouds.

3rd September 2005, 04:51 PM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Deja Vu I'm getting deja vu all over again . We have been down this road so many times in the years that I have been moderating here . So while we are waiting for answers I thought I'd share this new keris with you all . Yes , from Madura . I don't collect keris to accrue power , but I do believe that ALL fine works of art regardless of culture are prayers in and of themselves and that they are expressions of the divine nature of man . Attached Images

3rd September 2005, 05:20 PM	#17
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Rick, as i said in perhaps a few more words in e-mail, WOOF!! This is a fine example of the high technical quality of work which is available from modern keris makers and your comment that "ALL fine works of art regardless of culture are prayers in and of themselves and that they are expressions of the divine nature of man." is well taken. The pamor control on this piece is exquisite and the beauty of it certainly inspires and reflects a bit of the divine in us all.

3rd September 2005, 06:10 PM	#18
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Rick Excellent piece. There are very few pamor pendoks out there. Whoever made this ensamble is keeping the art of pamor work up to it's highest standard.

4th September 2005, 03:00 AM	#19
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Rick, Love the pendok more than the keris pamor. Beautiful...btw, where did you get yours?

4th September 2005, 03:25 AM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	From the Postman .

6th September 2005, 12:00 PM	#22
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	PURWACARITA WROTE: I'm glad that Indonesia keris have fans abroad whose keris change hands by money. I don't have problem with that. But in Indonesia, it could only be done without forgetting the culture. Culture is still the reason why Indonesian acquires keris, sorry, it is not the money. I am afraid you have misunderstood me, my friend. No where do i suggest that the REASON people in Indonesia acquire keris is money. I am not suggesting that the culture is forgotten and that keris in Indonesia are merely a commodity these days. Still, it is the METHOD by which most people, even in Indonesia, acquire their keris. I do understand the term mahar (dowery) and that within the culture many Indonesians will also accept certain responsiblities that come with the ownership of certain keris. Money, BTW, is nothing more than a representation of energy to be exchanged. There is nothing intrinsically evil about it. It represents the hard work of the person who holds it and can be used to obtain things they want or need in life. It represents the hard work they did to acquire it (in most cases ). Regardless of mahar, i believe it is still the most common way people acquire keris these days, even in Indonesia. I brought up the money issue originally because of your statement that people in Indonesia expect the "best" keris for $1000USD. I know for a fact that Indonesian collectors (for lack of a better word) often pay far more (in money) than that for what might be termed the "best" keris. This isn't meant to imply that they value the keris only for it's monetary value. Purwacarita, could you also please define the terms perdikan and gurindam? Thanks. BTW, thanks also for the lesson in astronomy. Last edited by nechesh; 6th September 2005 at 09:49 PM.

8th September 2005, 01:12 PM	#23
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi nechesh. You said you understand the 'cryptic drop in the bucket' culture of Indonesia keris" quite well, ...friend.

8th September 2005, 02:36 PM	#24
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Hi Purwacarita , thank you for your complimentary comments , let's take the new keris I purchased as an example . I bought it because it is a beautiful example of a kadutan . When I pass and it goes to my Son it will then be kadutan/pusaka , yes ? Now another question ; if I had the resources to comission a keris with certain esoteric properties made by one of the last empus in Jawa capable of doing this and he requested money from me then I have indeed 'purchased' the keris , no ?

10th September 2005, 10:52 AM	#26
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi Rick. Your kadutan not necessarily become pusaka of your son, unless you tell your son the experience you've through with the kadutan and how your kadutan became so useful for you and how you love and treasure it as pusaka. If you don't pass the message, your pusaka becomes kadutan of your son. If your son does not respect your message, it is not a pusaka of his. No priest will sell esoteric properties. You can only buy new kadutan, or antique keris which its historical and spiritual properties had been lost or neglected. ...But if the empu could make it pertimi and ask the money from you, I hope my explanation to nechesh can answer it perfectly. Why chopped liver? Now go back to what, stabbed wall? Hi nechesh. I am afraid you have misunderstood me, my friend. Until today for so many years I have lived in Indonesia as the citizen, there are still many things about Indonesia miss my understanding, as you know, Indonesia is rich of cultures. I can not understand them all and so I hope I could learn some from you in this forum. Besides, though you are not admit your last posts of money perspectives, for once again your newer post reflected that perfectly. Well, ...there is nothing wrong with it because you are from culture of capitalism. Capitalism is not bad, it most results positively to freedom, independence etc. Mahar culture at the other hand most results to loyalty, commitment, etc. If you notice there different of these 2 cultures in keris. Capitalism will need the guy work for money before he can buy keris. Mahar will need the guy commitment after the keris is given. So keris in capitalism will require the result of ones in the past(CE:money), while keris in mahar will require the result of ones in the future(CE:discipline, responsibility, loyalty, hard-work, etc). Keris in capitalism will make the bearer usually get more self confidence, while keris in mahar may make the bearer schizoprenic. Maybe you can moderate 2 cultures to gain the best method of acquiring keris. Buying and Selling is trade of both ones outcome of the past. Mahar is trade of ones outcome in the future and other in the present.

10th September 2005, 02:31 PM	#27
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	I can't believe I'm the only Indonesian posting. Are you still there enjoy reading or you are afraid to disagree my dynamic posts?

10th September 2005, 04:38 PM	#28
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Hi Purwacarita , thank you for explaining to me the questions I have asked of you . As for the 'chopped liver' business it was a self deprecating joke on my part which Andrew and Mark picked up on and they had a little fun changing my avatar . Afterwards I changed it back to the original Moro kris interpretation which is supposed to express the dynamic energy inherent in the weapon . I am not sure why our other Indonesian Members have not responded to your posts ; I certainly hope they will . I also hope that it is OK for non Indonesians to participate in this thread as well .

10th September 2005, 05:18 PM	#29
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Purwacarita, i am a little confused at this point. You began this thread with a story about a fellow Indonesian who obtained a keris that was "mahared" at Rp, 10 mil.(approx. $1000 USD). This seems to be a common practice in Indonesia as i have been on many websites from the area that SELL keris this way with the PRICE labelled as "mahar". I am aware that there are no doubt still Indonesians who may be fortunate enough to recieve a keris as pusaka from a relative, but is this truly the most COMMON way in which keris change hands TODAY in Indonesia or is it more likely to occur as it did with your friend in the story? BTW, the use of a local currency to obtain goods is not an invention of Capitalism. Communist and Socialist countries also use currency and even so-called primitive cultures commonly found particular items (shells, beads, etc.) which served as a form of money. On a purely idealistic level i do tend to agree with you that "Capitalism is not bad, it most results positively to freedom, independence etc. Mahar culture at the other hand most results to loyalty, commitment, etc." , but in practice i am not convinced it actually works out that way. And with great respect to the long histories and cultures of the Indonesian people you are CURRENTLY living in a very Capitalistic society. People are people after all, and whether they are capable of maintaining any commitment to the spirit and nature of the keris they have obtained is probably more determined by their personal understanding of "Will" than the manner in which they obtained their keris. From where i sit it is basically impossible for me to receive a keris through mahar. I am therefore forced into using money to obtain my keris. This is not, believe me, because of any great love or appreciation for the system of Capitalism. Yet when i receive a keris i do my best to pay respect to it an try to determine the "will" of the blade, if any. If i understand you correctly it is your stance that a keris which is sold for money no longer holds any esorteric properties. If that is your belief i have personally found it to be untrue. Many bought keris still resonate strongly and i don't need psychics, dukkuns or Coggins machines to prove it to me. I am still really interested in your definitions of the terms perdikan and gurindam. It can only be helpful to the points you are trying to make if we understand all your words.

10th September 2005, 08:07 PM	#30
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Another Thought and Question Purwacarita , in rereading this thread I find that at least three people (keris enthusiasts) from your area have responded to your post . Perhaps they have said all they wish on this subject . Now I must ask , if your views on the nature and transferrence of keris from one person to another is not about money at all ; why then is your avatar money itself ? I must admit to being as confused about this as you must be about my "Kris stabbing a wall" .