Silver mounted hussar? sword for comment

Valjhun · 26th January 2014, 05:37 PM

Hi,

Aquired this beauty today. I love it. Low grade silver mounts. Rather short, but beeing a private purchase piece, it was not meant for combat on a horseback I suppose.

No markings, but the little sun on the crossguard could tell that this is an austrian sword, napoleonic period. Do you agree?

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2014, 11:10 PM

This is quite a handsome sabre Valjhun, which appears to be in the style of Eastern European forms, including Austrian which was of course part of Hungary then. What you note is in most cases probably true in degree, silver and elaborately decorated sabres would typically be for dress occasions.
What seems odd to me is that for a silver mounted sabre, which has various elements which are somewhat compared to a number of Eastern European forms, this one seems remarkably austere.

I have not been able to locate any examples in standard references on Eastern European swords with anything directly comparable, though in gestalt it does carry the theme. It seems very unusual to have a solid silver grip, though it is very attractive, and I have not seen a sectioned guard and knucklebow system like this.

The interesting stylized chopmark device at the back of the guard would seem possibly to be a stylized allusion to some of the ornate baroque sunburst style langet motif seen on some Eastern European sabres of 18th c. The beaded motif recalls a Hungarian design mid 18th on cavalry officers sabres of the Estrhazy regiment I believe.

Any evidence of markings or patination on the blade? Looks incredibly clean.

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2014, 06:59 PM

In the absence of other replies, I will add additional notes as I research further here. It is difficult to properly guage a weapon without having it in hand, but the general appearance of this sword does bring to mind some more recent examples of such classic forms in these kinds of dress.

Also, in recent observations I would submit an entirely different suggestion. I have seen certain Caucasian swords, I believe Georgian, with similar hilt profile with very heavy grip shape, and the silverwork reminds me of some of these hilts, even some Khevsur examples come to mind. The interesting profiled beadwork as well as the langet with corresponding scabbard throat receiver are similar in some respects. As previously noted, I have been unable to locate any matching hilts in Eastern European references, but these influences along with others certainly had considerable traction in the Caucusus in the 19th century and later.

Many of these Caucasian swords are also somewhat recently produced, though extremely well done examples.
I hope others will add their thoughts to this possibility.

Valjhun · 29th January 2014, 09:48 PM

Thank you Jim, for your most astute observations.
In comparison to other period officer items it is very austere with practically no decorations, almost minimalistic. That I love about this piece.
I would add, that I saw that particular scabbard ending on some austrian swords before. I tihk the hilt is stylised from earlier hussar sabers.

M ELEY · 30th January 2014, 02:20 AM

Not my area, but an absolutely beautiful sword! In fact, I like the austerity of the piece, which seems to indicate that, yes, it was made for a person of some import, but also a piece that is more than a dress piece! I am curious how long the blade is? You mentioned that the blade length being shorter and I was curious what the standard length was for a horseman's saber? From what I've seen of European swords of the period, ca.1780-1810, anything over 30" seems to fit the bill-

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2014, 06:10 AM

Good point Valjhun, and that curious tab at the scabbard chape was one element which went against my Georgian idea. I simply brought that in as there were some interesting similarities, but the note you make on Austrian scabbards does sound familiar.

I am actually with you and Mark in that I also like the more austere examples especially in these cavalry sabres as they tend to be of course fighting weapons rather than dress.

Mark, I always thought that cavalry sabres had to be long, usually 33 to about 36", but I know that in a number of instances some officers sabres had remarkably short blades. I once had an British M1796 (by H Osborne)which I know dated 1796-1801 as it had the Royal arms of that period in gilt on the blade , and its blade was around 29".

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 30th January 2014, 04:19 PM

I guess much has to be considerd about the stature of the user.
Not impossible that a short guy manages to enlist in cavalry, either a brave fellow or a noble representative, whereas he wouldn't like to wander around stumbling on his sword

.

M ELEY · 31st January 2014, 02:08 AM

Actually, I think you are right, Jim, about typical cavalry/horseman's sword blade lengths. One of the references I was falling back on was Neuman's book, whose examples ranged from 29'' up. His book, however, reflected many swords made under the duress of war, specifically American-made cav pieces with blade lenths all over the charts due to importation, makeshift blacksmith-made affairs, and blades taken from other/older and broken swords and refitted, so not the best source material, I guess-

Jim McDougall · 31st January 2014, 02:54 AM

Thanks Mark, it really does seem there were many factors involved and most more likely to have been 'logistical' rather than functional or according to size etc.
While purely analogical, it is interesting that regulations for the sabres for native cavalry units in British India prescribed 30" blades for one presidencies regiments and 33" blades for another. Never could figure that one out

Valjhun · 1st February 2014, 12:26 PM

This swords blade is 27,5 inches. I'm still quite sure that it is a late 18th century austrian hussar cavalry officer sword.

CutlassCollector · 2nd February 2014, 02:01 PM

I really like this sabre and as others have said it is a lovely and unusual piece and I too like the simplicity of the decoration.
It does occur to me that smooth silver is not the ideal combat grip and every time I look at the pictures I cannot get over the feeling that the D guard should swing or swivel aside and the silver lift off to reveal a working hilt underneath. Impossible I suppose?

Regards CC.

Valjhun · 3rd February 2014, 08:46 PM

I think it is low grade silver. Rather a small ammount of silver, (.300) mixed with other metals.

ArmsAndAntiques · 5th February 2014, 07:05 PM

I would only add that the style of hilt and the steel ball decoration has corollaries in Imperial Russian work of the late 18th- early 19th C. If I remember right there may be at least one example of similar shape and form in the Imperial Russian sword book, "Russkoe Kholodnoie Oruzhie" by Alexander Kulinsky. However,I would say that the scabbard shape and style, in addition to the blade shape and style do not point to Russia, though the handle does... Could be a period "composite" in that a non-Russian blade was used in the composition of a Russian sword, which was quite common in Imperial Russian edged weaponry.

Best
LL

26th January 2014, 05:37 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Silver mounted hussar? sword for comment Hi, Aquired this beauty today. I love it. Low grade silver mounts. Rather short, but beeing a private purchase piece, it was not meant for combat on a horseback I suppose. No markings, but the little sun on the crossguard could tell that this is an austrian sword, napoleonic period. Do you agree? Attached Images

27th January 2014, 11:10 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	This is quite a handsome sabre Valjhun, which appears to be in the style of Eastern European forms, including Austrian which was of course part of Hungary then. What you note is in most cases probably true in degree, silver and elaborately decorated sabres would typically be for dress occasions. What seems odd to me is that for a silver mounted sabre, which has various elements which are somewhat compared to a number of Eastern European forms, this one seems remarkably austere. I have not been able to locate any examples in standard references on Eastern European swords with anything directly comparable, though in gestalt it does carry the theme. It seems very unusual to have a solid silver grip, though it is very attractive, and I have not seen a sectioned guard and knucklebow system like this. The interesting stylized chopmark device at the back of the guard would seem possibly to be a stylized allusion to some of the ornate baroque sunburst style langet motif seen on some Eastern European sabres of 18th c. The beaded motif recalls a Hungarian design mid 18th on cavalry officers sabres of the Estrhazy regiment I believe. Any evidence of markings or patination on the blade? Looks incredibly clean.

28th January 2014, 06:59 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	In the absence of other replies, I will add additional notes as I research further here. It is difficult to properly guage a weapon without having it in hand, but the general appearance of this sword does bring to mind some more recent examples of such classic forms in these kinds of dress. Also, in recent observations I would submit an entirely different suggestion. I have seen certain Caucasian swords, I believe Georgian, with similar hilt profile with very heavy grip shape, and the silverwork reminds me of some of these hilts, even some Khevsur examples come to mind. The interesting profiled beadwork as well as the langet with corresponding scabbard throat receiver are similar in some respects. As previously noted, I have been unable to locate any matching hilts in Eastern European references, but these influences along with others certainly had considerable traction in the Caucusus in the 19th century and later. Many of these Caucasian swords are also somewhat recently produced, though extremely well done examples. I hope others will add their thoughts to this possibility.

29th January 2014, 09:48 PM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Thank you Jim, for your most astute observations. In comparison to other period officer items it is very austere with practically no decorations, almost minimalistic. That I love about this piece. I would add, that I saw that particular scabbard ending on some austrian swords before. I tihk the hilt is stylised from earlier hussar sabers.

30th January 2014, 02:20 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	Not my area, but an absolutely beautiful sword! In fact, I like the austerity of the piece, which seems to indicate that, yes, it was made for a person of some import, but also a piece that is more than a dress piece! I am curious how long the blade is? You mentioned that the blade length being shorter and I was curious what the standard length was for a horseman's saber? From what I've seen of European swords of the period, ca.1780-1810, anything over 30" seems to fit the bill-

30th January 2014, 06:10 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Good point Valjhun, and that curious tab at the scabbard chape was one element which went against my Georgian idea. I simply brought that in as there were some interesting similarities, but the note you make on Austrian scabbards does sound familiar. I am actually with you and Mark in that I also like the more austere examples especially in these cavalry sabres as they tend to be of course fighting weapons rather than dress. Mark, I always thought that cavalry sabres had to be long, usually 33 to about 36", but I know that in a number of instances some officers sabres had remarkably short blades. I once had an British M1796 (by H Osborne)which I know dated 1796-1801 as it had the Royal arms of that period in gilt on the blade , and its blade was around 29". All best regards, Jim

30th January 2014, 04:19 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	I guess much has to be considerd about the stature of the user. Not impossible that a short guy manages to enlist in cavalry, either a brave fellow or a noble representative, whereas he wouldn't like to wander around stumbling on his sword .

31st January 2014, 02:08 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	Actually, I think you are right, Jim, about typical cavalry/horseman's sword blade lengths. One of the references I was falling back on was Neuman's book, whose examples ranged from 29'' up. His book, however, reflected many swords made under the duress of war, specifically American-made cav pieces with blade lenths all over the charts due to importation, makeshift blacksmith-made affairs, and blades taken from other/older and broken swords and refitted, so not the best source material, I guess-

31st January 2014, 02:54 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Thanks Mark, it really does seem there were many factors involved and most more likely to have been 'logistical' rather than functional or according to size etc. While purely analogical, it is interesting that regulations for the sabres for native cavalry units in British India prescribed 30" blades for one presidencies regiments and 33" blades for another. Never could figure that one out

1st February 2014, 12:26 PM	#10
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	This swords blade is 27,5 inches. I'm still quite sure that it is a late 18th century austrian hussar cavalry officer sword.

2nd February 2014, 02:01 PM	#11
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 321	I really like this sabre and as others have said it is a lovely and unusual piece and I too like the simplicity of the decoration. It does occur to me that smooth silver is not the ideal combat grip and every time I look at the pictures I cannot get over the feeling that the D guard should swing or swivel aside and the silver lift off to reveal a working hilt underneath. Impossible I suppose? Regards CC.

3rd February 2014, 08:46 PM	#12
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I think it is low grade silver. Rather a small ammount of silver, (.300) mixed with other metals.

5th February 2014, 07:05 PM	#13
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	I would only add that the style of hilt and the steel ball decoration has corollaries in Imperial Russian work of the late 18th- early 19th C. If I remember right there may be at least one example of similar shape and form in the Imperial Russian sword book, "Russkoe Kholodnoie Oruzhie" by Alexander Kulinsky. However,I would say that the scabbard shape and style, in addition to the blade shape and style do not point to Russia, though the handle does... Could be a period "composite" in that a non-Russian blade was used in the composition of a Russian sword, which was quite common in Imperial Russian edged weaponry. Best LL