Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 26th October 2010, 11:42 PM   #1
Bill M
Member
 
Bill M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA Georgia
Posts: 1,596
Default Philippine Dagger

Knowing I liked the Javanese keris, an old friend told me he had a "large wavy blade sword." It was a fantastic dual twistcore Moro kris with a beautiful original scabbard. There was also a kampilan and this dagger.

It was in the estate of his great grandfather, an American general who served in the Philippines during the late 1800s and early 1900s. It has been suggested that this dagger belonged to a Philippine General Leandro Fullon.

I admit that I did not have a clue as to the significance of these these three pieces that were the beginning of a life-long fascination with the weapons and rich culture of the Philippine Islands.

Hope that you enjoy the pictures.
Attached Images
           
Bill M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th October 2010, 11:50 PM   #2
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

Stunning cross-hilt dagger. What is that happening along the medial ridge down near the tip? It looks as if the fuller transitions to a flat ridge, and again to a noticeable diamond cross-section... Could the dagger possibly be re-hilted from an earlier European blade?
laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2010, 12:26 AM   #3
Bill M
Member
 
Bill M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA Georgia
Posts: 1,596
Default

Note that when I first got this dagger some rust showed up under the powerful electronic flash units used to make these pictures. I quickly cleaned it off, but it is still there is these older images.
Bill M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2010, 07:49 AM   #4
Dimasalang
Member
 
Dimasalang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 264
Default

Thanks for reposting these photos Bill! This dagger is awesome.
Can you let me know the name of the American General?
Dimasalang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2010, 06:39 PM   #5
Robert
EAAF Staff
 
Robert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Centerville, Kansas
Posts: 2,189
Default

I too would like to thank you for reposting these pictures of this wonderful dagger. I usually copy photos of interest so I can use them as reference later but for some reason I either didn't copy these or some how lost or misplaced them if I did. Could you please answer a couple of questions on this for me? The first question is whether or not the wooden scabbard is painted or just of an extremely dark wood? The second is whether the fittings are of silver, nickel silver or silver plated copper or brass? The third is whether you own the beautiful piece of history or if it still belongs to your friend? Dimasalang has already ask my final question of who the General was who brought this dagger back . Again many thanks for reposting these pictures.

Robert

Last edited by Robert Coleman : 27th October 2010 at 08:44 PM.
Robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2010, 08:34 PM   #6
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,022
Default

Thank you for reposting this beautiful dagger!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2010, 10:59 PM   #7
Bill M
Member
 
Bill M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA Georgia
Posts: 1,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Coleman
I too would like to thank you for reposting these pictures of this wonderful dagger. I usually copy photos of interest so I can use them as reference later but for some reason I either didn't copy these or some how lost or misplaced them if I did. Could you please answer a couple of questions on this for me? The first question is whether or not the wooden scabbard is painted or just of an extremely dark wood? The second is whether the fittings are of silver, nickel silver or silver plated copper or brass? The third is whether you own the beautiful piece of history or if it still belongs to your friend? Dimasalang has already ask my final question of who the General was who brought this dagger back . Again many thanks for reposting these pictures.

Robert


The scabbard is dark wood. Not painted.

The dagger is in my collection. He offered to sell the three pieces and I bought them. At the time I did not have a clue about the dagger. Thought it was something from Europe. I posted it on this Forum in 2004 when I got it and had several responses identifying it. Zelbone and Battara were right on target! At the time I had no knowledge of Philippine weapons.

The fittings do not seem to be plated. The chain may be plated. Don't know the nickel/silver content. I have stored it in a safe deposit box, will take a closer look when I am at the bank.

I put it there because I have had some strange to unpleasant emails demanding that I return the dagger to them, all of whom claim to be a direct descendant of Fullon.

I forgot the American general's name, but will ask my friend. These pieces were all he had from the PI. All the rest of the estate is sold.

I had originally agreed to give it to a PI friend, but we both agreed that it should go to a museum. I am in contact with a Moro Princess of the Buayan dynasty who is working to build a museum. She is well-known and I trust her. I would like to return the dagger to it's homeland. Should go to the Visayas, but Putri can have a section of her museum for other areas. It is part of PI heritage and should go home soon.

Here is my original post. I was using the name Vajrayana, 3/22/04

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002102.html

Re-reading the responses I am again impressed by the knowledge of the people on this Forum. I have learned much here! Very grateful!

Last edited by Bill M : 28th October 2010 at 12:55 PM.
Bill M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2010, 09:41 AM   #8
carlos
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 693
Default

Congratulations for this dagger, is PERFECT!! I think is one of the more beatiful dagger I īve seen!!
carlos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2010, 01:50 PM   #9
Bill M
Member
 
Bill M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA Georgia
Posts: 1,596
Default

Thanks for the compliments!

Just found out that "Leandro" as in General Leandro Fullon means, "Lion Man."
Bill M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2010, 02:09 PM   #10
Spunjer
Member
 
Spunjer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,713
Default

Beautiful indeed, bill, beautiful indeed...
Spunjer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2010, 02:16 PM   #11
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

It's a very fine dagger indeed! Beautiful.
A 'picture in your wallet' kind of piece!
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2010, 10:56 PM   #12
Bill M
Member
 
Bill M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA Georgia
Posts: 1,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
It's a very fine dagger indeed! Beautiful.
A 'picture in your wallet' kind of piece!


I really like this description! "A picture in your wallet kind of piece." Bravo! I WILL use this!
Bill M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2010, 11:11 PM   #13
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,435
Default Very nice

Very nice Bill, very nice. I can not add anything that has not already been added. I would only say as a matter of opinion, get that blade professionally polished, it is such a shame to not see it as bright and fine as the dress that surrounds it.

Gav
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2020, 11:44 AM   #14
Bill M
Member
 
Bill M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA Georgia
Posts: 1,596
Default David

David,

I saw another post in which you said we had lost the pictures. Found another post with pictures. Thought I would revive this one. There were some very interesting comments on the earlier post.

Last edited by Bill M : 10th May 2020 at 12:00 PM.
Bill M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2020, 02:02 AM   #15
xasterix
Member
 
xasterix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 168
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M
David,

I saw another post in which you said we had lost the pictures. Found another post with pictures. Thought I would revive this one. There were some very interesting comments on the earlier post.


That's a precious historical artifact that belonged to General Leandro Fullon. The aesthetics of the dagger resonate with other Cavite-marked daggers. I'd like to believe that most of the elaborate Katipunan daggers were made in that area.

I'm curious- did your plan to donate this piece push through?

Sincerely,
Xas
xasterix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2020, 04:15 PM   #16
Bill M
Member
 
Bill M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA Georgia
Posts: 1,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xasterix
That's a precious historical artifact that belonged to General Leandro Fullon. The aesthetics of the dagger resonate with other Cavite-marked daggers. I'd like to believe that most of the elaborate Katipunan daggers were made in that area.

I'm curious- did your plan to donate this piece push through?

Sincerely,
Xas


I had planned to donate to a museum in the PI, but I was in contact with a putri in the government. But she suggested that if I did donate it to a museum, it would not wind up in a museum where people could enjoy it, but it would get into the wrong hands and it would be hidden in a private collection.

So I have a friend at the Smithsonian who has a very powerful vault for safekeeping, not even in my state. I had threats that it must be returned to the PI or I would be harmed.
Bill M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2020, 04:20 PM   #17
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,822
Default

Extortion Bill?
That's a new low.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2020, 04:38 PM   #18
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Extortion Bill?
That's a new low.


ď I had planned to donate to a museum in the PI, but I was in contact with a putri in the government. But she suggested that if I did donate it to a museum, it would not wind up in a museum where people could enjoy it, but it would get into the wrong hands and it would be hidden in a private collection.

So I have a friend at the Smithsonian who has a very powerful vault for safekeeping, not even in my state. I had threats that it must be returned to the PI or I would be harmed.Ē

Thatís so sad. Winston Churchill once wrote something to the effect that Civilization is when a nationís leaders donít seek to get elected in order to use office to steal the countryís resources.
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2020, 04:43 PM   #19
Bill M
Member
 
Bill M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA Georgia
Posts: 1,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Extortion Bill?
That's a new low.



Some people can get excited.

Are there still Jihads?


I have not been collecting for a while. I am keeping the top tier pieces, but may sell some of the just below top tier, but don't know when to begin. I have over 100 plus PI weapons.

I am collecting very old cars. 1908 Thomas Flyer (Red); 1910 Thomas Flyer (Green) and 1913 Marmon Speedster.
Attached Images
   
Bill M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2020, 05:05 PM   #20
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 6,062
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M
I had threats that it must be returned to the PI or I would be harmed.

This is pretty hardcore illegal stuff Bill. I do hope you have taken steps to protect yourself as well as this dagger. You should be sure to report as much as possible about the person or people who have threatened you including any contact information you might have on them.
While i do indeed agree that this dagger is a historical piece that would be well served by a spot in a museum, the actual circumstances of its original acquisition need to be further investigated. Was this taken from General Leandro Fullon or was it gifted to the ancestor General of your good friend? While Fullon at first fought against the invading American forces he was eventually appointed as part of their established government.
"After the civil government was organized by the American regime, he was appointed Provincial Governor of Antique on April 15, 1901, a post that he held until his death in Oct. 16, 1904."
If this was a case of a weapon taken by force from this prominent Filipino General perhaps it does indeed belong either with Fullon's descendants or in a Filipino museum as it is part of their history. But if it was a gift to the American General from him then it has become part of that person's history and was the rightful property of you old friend to do as he saw fit to do with it. I might suggest you question your old friend more on these questions if possible and see if you can establish some timeline for all this.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2020, 05:26 PM   #21
xasterix
Member
 
xasterix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 168
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M
I had planned to donate to a museum in the PI, but I was in contact with a putri in the government. But she suggested that if I did donate it to a museum, it would not wind up in a museum where people could enjoy it, but it would get into the wrong hands and it would be hidden in a private collection.

So I have a friend at the Smithsonian who has a very powerful vault for safekeeping, not even in my state. I had threats that it must be returned to the PI or I would be harmed.


That's alarming news. I second the suggestion of the others and recommend that you take legal steps against this. If it was a Filipino who threatened you, then I deeply apologize. Some of my fellow citizens can be unruly, not to mention corrupt.
xasterix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2020, 06:03 PM   #22
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,022
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M
I had threats that it must be returned to the PI or I would be harmed.


Unbelievable!!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2020, 06:08 PM   #23
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 394
Default

I think if I was to donate something to a museum I would insist on writing a contract which states that 1) the recipient is the museum, and 2) the item must be publicly displayed.

Itís quite annoying when visiting historical sites in post-revolutionary societies where itís only the empty buildings left and all the content is long gone (destroyed or stolen).

One solution to Bill Mís dilemma might be to lend the item to an Asian museum located in the US, with a long term view to returning it to its country of origin in the future when governance has improved?
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2020, 12:54 AM   #24
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,475
Default

Please protect yourself Bill!

Humans can be the stupidest of creatures.

I was told at the Antiques Road Show here in town years ago that I needed to keep my stuff for now because if I ever offered any of my stuff to PI museums, they would do in through the front door and out through the back door.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2020, 09:01 AM   #25
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M
I had planned to donate to a museum in the PI, but I was in contact with a putri in the government. But she suggested that if I did donate it to a museum, it would not wind up in a museum where people could enjoy it, but it would get into the wrong hands and it would be hidden in a private collection.

So I have a friend at the Smithsonian who has a very powerful vault for safekeeping, not even in my state. I had threats that it must be returned to the PI or I would be harmed.


One solution could be to sell the item to a private foundation in PI which agrees to keep it on public display for the benefit of society. Many years ago when I was visiting Manila I remember Ayala Museum in Makati, which is run by the private Ayala Foundation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayala_Museum. It showcases PI history and culture with several floors of well organized exhibits. I think the Ayala Museum might take good care of the item. Incidentally I also remember visiting the groundfloor restauarant for lunch and eating pork ceviche which was out of this world.
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2020, 10:16 AM   #26
Will M
Member
 
Will M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 221
Default

The majority of historical items are in private hands. No guarantee this dagger would be displayed as many museums have up to 90% of their stock in long term preservation. What may seem valuable and historical to us may not to a museum curator. Weapons have taken a back seat as far as displays and less interesting items (to us) are displayed.
I would keep it and enjoy it or sell it at a good specialized auction to realize its full price potential.
As someone said here that this sort of thing will exit the rear museum door.
Even with a paper showing you gifted the item many of them disappear over time and not compensation or reason is ever given.
Will M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2020, 12:22 PM   #27
Pinoy Blade Hunter
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 51
Default

exquisite piece. would you mind if i may ask for some measurements? thank you
Pinoy Blade Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:10 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.