A Saturday afternoon African riddle

Iain · 11th June 2011, 02:53 PM

For those that like African things... I'll give a hint - it's not East or N. African.

Obviously a long way to go on rust removal and restoration, this thing has a very crusty and deep reddish patina and corrosion on the iron blade. The hilt is solid bronze and heavily blackened from use and probably smoke. I ran out of oil and a few other cleaning materials this afternoon so I thought why not take a break, throw it up here and see if anyone can guess what it is.

mrwizard · 11th June 2011, 03:16 PM

Ohh, a riddle! :-)

My guess is that this Takouba is of Hausa origin based on the shape of the hilt.

Edit: On the other hand the motif on the hilt doesn't look like Hausa, so my second guess is that i'm wrong...

Best Regards,
Thilo

Iain · 11th June 2011, 10:49 PM

Hi Thilo,

You would be wrong, but not at all a bad guess. You are generally in the right geographical area and oddly this is from a group that also uses takouba. So remarkably close in fact! At least among this people, this form should I think, precede the takouba.

Iain

tom hyle · 12th June 2011, 12:31 AM

tuareq?
The takouba form is used by multiple tribes.....is this solid brass or wood-filled?
The blade seems odd, too; very thick and rather narrow for a takouba.

A.alnakkas · 12th June 2011, 08:31 AM

Not going to say any opinion as I am no expert but I cant wait to see this one cleaned and ready

Blade looks much much older then the hilt though?

Iain · 12th June 2011, 09:09 AM

Tom,

Not Tuareg. This diamond cross section does not turn up in takouba really. Extremely thick tang.

Solid, cast hilt. Two piece design, guard and then single piece grip and pommel.

A.alnakkas,

Hilt should be contemporary with the blade. The cleaning on this is going to take a while. Decades of probably sitting in the roof of a hut hasn't been kind.

Keep guessing folks but forget the normal tribal associations of takouba.

I'll probably say what it actually is later today if there's not much more interest in guessing.

Cheers,

Iain

Gavin Nugent · 12th June 2011, 10:27 AM

I do not know Iain but the blade, although straight, shares a lot in common with your Chamba sword...is it Chamba?

Gav

Iain · 12th June 2011, 04:53 PM

Hi Gav,

Not Chamba - although the similarity is well noted and the similarity is what fascinated me in the first place.

This is not from anywhere near the Mandara mountains though - or even Nigeria for that matter (although I desperately want a Mandara piece, for those out there with them).

I've probably been enough of a tease. This was collected directly from the Lobi people (which is why I am lucky enough to have an exact tribal attribution and not have any guesswork involved

) in Burkina Faso. The group is mostly situated in that country as well as Ghana, where they originated from. They are not Islamic.

This is not a people known for swords. Which is why this piece surprised me. I have a takouba from the same group that appears largely ceremonial but this one, with a heavy duty iron blade and obvious signs of use seems to be a "user" although doubtless relegated to ceremonial functions later in life. Between this and various pieces from the Mandara area it seems to me more and more that these heavy, iron, diamond cross section blades are a style that was fairly widespread before Hausa/Sokoto economic and military dominance seems to have spread the takouba form pretty much everywhere.

I picked up the necessary cleaning supplies today and hopefully next week will have this one scrubbed up a bit better.

EDIT: While this was collected from the Lobi, I still have my doubts it originates with them. THey are known for bows and arrows not swords. An intriguing possibility is the Kenedougou empire which had a major offensive against the Lobi in the early 1800s. But that is a wild guess and I have no Kenedougou reference material to check it against.

Cheers,

Iain

Martin Lubojacky · 17th June 2011, 11:47 PM

Hello Iain,

This is excellent addition to your collection of Sahel straight swords. Congratulation to the sword and, since it is directly from Lobi (or lobby?), also to your sources/channels of supply. I am looking forward to seeing the sword cleaned and treated.
If I would not already know where it is comming from, I would also wager on this Mandara - Mambila region, like Gav...
Regards,
Martin

tom hyle · 18th June 2011, 11:29 AM

BTW, tang thicker than blade, sometimes 3 or 4 times as thick is pretty common on African swords; pretty common on takouba in my experience. It's a good thing.

Iain · 18th June 2011, 12:52 PM

Hi Martin,

Thanks for your kind words. I am finally branching out from just owning takoubas!

I am not entirely sure this is Lobi, although it definitely was in their possession. The form just seems wrong for the area, the work not characteristic of that people group.

I would also normally be quick to call it a Mandara sword, but that seems geographically a little far away for this example which most certainly was found in Burkina Faso.

I am still trying to clean off all the rust and scale. It is proving to be a very stubborn little thing. Meanwhile my quest for a true Mandara sword continues...

Cheers,

Iain

Iain · 25th March 2012, 02:59 PM

About time I updated this thread. My restoration was stalled by cold weather and an outdoor workshop. But now spring is returning and it has been warm enough in the last weeks to work on this sword.

I have to say this piece should have some good age because the level of scale on it was (and is) incredible. As most of you know I am usually in the school of do almost nothing to pieces in my collection. But in this particular case the corrosion was deep enough it needed to be cleaned as much as possible.

I started with light treatments of pineapple juice, then I tried coke... Nothing was moving. Absolutely nothing. I was cautious to use more aggressive methods because there was a good chance parts of the blade were unstable, however with a very slow process of vinegar and carefully monitoring the application each hour I made a lot of progress. The scaling that remains needs a little work, but is so deeply in place I am hesitant to do much more to it.

I was told by the seller this sword came directly from the Lobi, but the sword does not seem characteristic of that group... It is possible they acquired it by other means as several kingdoms in the area raided the Lobi (such as the Kénédougou Kingdom).

Obviously I want to clean up the sword a little more but I am quite happy with my progress and wanted to show it off as I think it is quite an unusual piece.

Martin Lubojacky · 27th March 2012, 11:18 AM

Hi Iain,
Regarding the hilt, I would suggest to clean it with soft brass brush in hot water solution of soda saleratus in aluminium pot (mechanical cleaning + electrolytical reaction). You would remove all impurities and the surface would have uniform, not shiny colour (it could be shiny immediately after the cleaning, but it would receive soft yellow colour in a few days again, after such treatement).
Regards,
Martin

Iain · 27th March 2012, 11:26 AM

Hi Martin,

I will maybe try it. I am undecided if I prefer to leave it looking old with this patina so it will match the blade better (since the blade will never look perfect I think)?

Do you have some suggestion where to find the brass brushes in CZ?

Martin Lubojacky · 27th March 2012, 12:35 PM

Any hardware store (or OBI, Hornbach etc), but you also need more gentle brushes, so it is better to contact suppliers of goldsmiths through internet (you will "google" it). Goldsmiths use iron brushes, but very very soft ones(and also expensive in comparision what you can find in hardware store)
Regards,
Martin

Iain · 27th March 2012, 12:38 PM

Thanks Martin, I've tried looking in my local OBI before but never found anything soft enough. I will try with the jewelry suppliers online.

11th June 2011, 02:53 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,680	A Saturday afternoon African riddle For those that like African things... I'll give a hint - it's not East or N. African. Obviously a long way to go on rust removal and restoration, this thing has a very crusty and deep reddish patina and corrosion on the iron blade. The hilt is solid bronze and heavily blackened from use and probably smoke. I ran out of oil and a few other cleaning materials this afternoon so I thought why not take a break, throw it up here and see if anyone can guess what it is. Attached Images

11th June 2011, 03:16 PM	#2
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Ohh, a riddle! :-) My guess is that this Takouba is of Hausa origin based on the shape of the hilt. Edit: On the other hand the motif on the hilt doesn't look like Hausa, so my second guess is that i'm wrong... Best Regards, Thilo Last edited by mrwizard; 11th June 2011 at 04:12 PM.

11th June 2011, 10:49 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,680	Hi Thilo, You would be wrong, but not at all a bad guess. You are generally in the right geographical area and oddly this is from a group that also uses takouba. So remarkably close in fact! At least among this people, this form should I think, precede the takouba. Iain Last edited by Iain; 12th June 2011 at 12:13 AM.

12th June 2011, 10:27 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A riddle.. I do not know Iain but the blade, although straight, shares a lot in common with your Chamba sword...is it Chamba? Gav

25th March 2012, 02:59 PM	#12
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,680	About time I updated this thread. My restoration was stalled by cold weather and an outdoor workshop. But now spring is returning and it has been warm enough in the last weeks to work on this sword. I have to say this piece should have some good age because the level of scale on it was (and is) incredible. As most of you know I am usually in the school of do almost nothing to pieces in my collection. But in this particular case the corrosion was deep enough it needed to be cleaned as much as possible. I started with light treatments of pineapple juice, then I tried coke... Nothing was moving. Absolutely nothing. I was cautious to use more aggressive methods because there was a good chance parts of the blade were unstable, however with a very slow process of vinegar and carefully monitoring the application each hour I made a lot of progress. The scaling that remains needs a little work, but is so deeply in place I am hesitant to do much more to it. I was told by the seller this sword came directly from the Lobi, but the sword does not seem characteristic of that group... It is possible they acquired it by other means as several kingdoms in the area raided the Lobi (such as the Kénédougou Kingdom). Obviously I want to clean up the sword a little more but I am quite happy with my progress and wanted to show it off as I think it is quite an unusual piece. Attached Images Last edited by Iain; 25th March 2012 at 03:43 PM.

12th June 2011, 12:31 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	tuareq? The takouba form is used by multiple tribes.....is this solid brass or wood-filled? The blade seems odd, too; very thick and rather narrow for a takouba.

12th June 2011, 08:31 AM	#5
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	Not going to say any opinion as I am no expert but I cant wait to see this one cleaned and ready Blade looks much much older then the hilt though?

12th June 2011, 09:09 AM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,680	Tom, Not Tuareg. This diamond cross section does not turn up in takouba really. Extremely thick tang. Solid, cast hilt. Two piece design, guard and then single piece grip and pommel. A.alnakkas, Hilt should be contemporary with the blade. The cleaning on this is going to take a while. Decades of probably sitting in the roof of a hut hasn't been kind. Keep guessing folks but forget the normal tribal associations of takouba. I'll probably say what it actually is later today if there's not much more interest in guessing. Cheers, Iain

12th June 2011, 04:53 PM	#8
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,680	Hi Gav, Not Chamba - although the similarity is well noted and the similarity is what fascinated me in the first place. This is not from anywhere near the Mandara mountains though - or even Nigeria for that matter (although I desperately want a Mandara piece, for those out there with them). I've probably been enough of a tease. This was collected directly from the Lobi people (which is why I am lucky enough to have an exact tribal attribution and not have any guesswork involved ) in Burkina Faso. The group is mostly situated in that country as well as Ghana, where they originated from. They are not Islamic. This is not a people known for swords. Which is why this piece surprised me. I have a takouba from the same group that appears largely ceremonial but this one, with a heavy duty iron blade and obvious signs of use seems to be a "user" although doubtless relegated to ceremonial functions later in life. Between this and various pieces from the Mandara area it seems to me more and more that these heavy, iron, diamond cross section blades are a style that was fairly widespread before Hausa/Sokoto economic and military dominance seems to have spread the takouba form pretty much everywhere. I picked up the necessary cleaning supplies today and hopefully next week will have this one scrubbed up a bit better. EDIT: While this was collected from the Lobi, I still have my doubts it originates with them. THey are known for bows and arrows not swords. An intriguing possibility is the Kenedougou empire which had a major offensive against the Lobi in the early 1800s. But that is a wild guess and I have no Kenedougou reference material to check it against. Cheers, Iain

17th June 2011, 11:47 PM	#9
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Hello Iain, This is excellent addition to your collection of Sahel straight swords. Congratulation to the sword and, since it is directly from Lobi (or lobby?), also to your sources/channels of supply. I am looking forward to seeing the sword cleaned and treated. If I would not already know where it is comming from, I would also wager on this Mandara - Mambila region, like Gav... Regards, Martin

18th June 2011, 11:29 AM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW, tang thicker than blade, sometimes 3 or 4 times as thick is pretty common on African swords; pretty common on takouba in my experience. It's a good thing.

18th June 2011, 12:52 PM	#11
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,680	Hi Martin, Thanks for your kind words. I am finally branching out from just owning takoubas! I am not entirely sure this is Lobi, although it definitely was in their possession. The form just seems wrong for the area, the work not characteristic of that people group. I would also normally be quick to call it a Mandara sword, but that seems geographically a little far away for this example which most certainly was found in Burkina Faso. I am still trying to clean off all the rust and scale. It is proving to be a very stubborn little thing. Meanwhile my quest for a true Mandara sword continues... Cheers, Iain

27th March 2012, 11:18 AM	#13
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Hi Iain, Regarding the hilt, I would suggest to clean it with soft brass brush in hot water solution of soda saleratus in aluminium pot (mechanical cleaning + electrolytical reaction). You would remove all impurities and the surface would have uniform, not shiny colour (it could be shiny immediately after the cleaning, but it would receive soft yellow colour in a few days again, after such treatement). Regards, Martin

27th March 2012, 11:26 AM	#14
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,680	Hi Martin, I will maybe try it. I am undecided if I prefer to leave it looking old with this patina so it will match the blade better (since the blade will never look perfect I think)? Do you have some suggestion where to find the brass brushes in CZ?

27th March 2012, 12:35 PM	#15
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Any hardware store (or OBI, Hornbach etc), but you also need more gentle brushes, so it is better to contact suppliers of goldsmiths through internet (you will "google" it). Goldsmiths use iron brushes, but very very soft ones(and also expensive in comparision what you can find in hardware store) Regards, Martin

27th March 2012, 12:38 PM	#16
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,680	Thanks Martin, I've tried looking in my local OBI before but never found anything soft enough. I will try with the jewelry suppliers online.