The Purpose of Keris Panjang

eli · 19th June 2007, 07:57 PM

Hi I am a long time viewer but only second or third time thread starter.
I asked these questions on Keris Panjang a while ago but because I'm still interested I am starting a new thread about it to see if there's any fresh information on the subject.

Questions below-

I have always wondered on the role Keris Panjang plays in Indonesian society. I have come to understand that it is meant for judges, kings or people who have the right to execute somebody. But is its role first and foremost as a weapon of execution or as a symbol of power? Does anybody know when the first keris Panjang started showing up? Does anybody know why Keris panjang seem to be mainly made in Sumatra and Malaysia and what is its role in these societies? Thanks for any help in advance!-Eli

kai · 20th June 2007, 09:06 AM

Quote:

is its role first and foremost as a weapon of execution or as a symbol of power?

From what I understand, it's mainly a sign of power and status - you don't need an extra long blade for this way of execution. If I understand correctly, regular-sized Keris Jawa were used on Java for this purpose. Can our experts in things Jawa verify this, please?

Another hypothesis I came across was that the long blade evolved in response to the European rapiers when Portugese/etc. ships arrived at the scene...

Regards,
Kai

eli · 20th June 2007, 09:25 AM

From my knowledge the therory of combating rapiers has been but to rest do to the short tang on a keris which would make it easy to break during a fight. And many have also commented on the overall lack of efficency it would have compared to a rapier. Finally, if we look at where we see keris Panjang( often with royality or high ranking offcials) it just doesnt add up for me.

kai · 20th June 2007, 12:24 PM

Hello Eli,

Quote:

From my knowledge the therory of combating rapiers has been but to rest do to the short tang on a keris which would make it easy to break during a fight.

This assumption usually seems to be made by people not well versed in the use of keris as a weapon. Sure, having to face someone skilled with a rapier is a scary thought. Having to face a skilled Pesilat is not a nice thought either...

Quote:

And many have also commented on the overall lack of efficency it would have compared to a rapier.

I don't think that we should imagine a SEA warrior switching to European style fencing. While the old rapiers were quite sturdy, they are fairly specialized weapons as are keris; a little bit of extra reach might come in handy...

Quote:

Finally, if we look at where we see keris Panjang( often with royality or high ranking offcials) it just doesnt add up for me.

Well, the rank of file were usually armed with swords of the pedang or klewang type.

This hypothesis is not my favorite, too - yet it needs to be discussed seriously and not just dismissed out of hand.

Another line of thought could be that the gentry wanted to display that they had blades resembling rapiers even if they were not meant to be used against Europeans, at least not in a duel-like situation. So they could be mainly status blades and still owing their development to early contacts with Europeans.

BTW, what are the oldest keris panjang known? Any pics?

Regards,
Kai

David · 20th June 2007, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Another line of thought could be that the gentry wanted to display that they had blades resembling rapiers even if they were not meant to be used against Europeans, at least not in a duel-like situation. So they could be mainly status blades and still owing their development to early contacts with Europeans.

This would be more my line of thought. A keris panjang is not at all the same type of weapon as a rapier. This doesn't mean that handled by the right hand that it could not be an effective weapon. But it would seem to me that if a weapon were to be made in matial response to a European rapier that length would be just one of the considerations. As a status response however, just being longer might be enough.

eli · 20th June 2007, 07:15 PM

Thank you Kai for explaining the rapier Idea better.

Another thought to think about is its brother forms Anak Along and Bahari, did these forms preceed the Panjang or come after it?

kai · 20th June 2007, 09:54 PM

Hello David,

Quote:

But it would seem to me that if a weapon were to be made in matial response to a European rapier that length would be just one of the considerations.

Which other aspects are you thinking of?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 20th June 2007, 09:57 PM

Hello Eli,

Quote:

Another thought to think about is its brother forms Anak Along and Bahari, did these forms preceed the Panjang or come after it?

That's also a question I have been wondering about. There seems to be very little documented on the early keris (outside Jawa), at least in western languages...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2007, 12:53 AM

Regarding keris used for legal execution.

In Bali there are reports of ordinary keris being used for this purpose, and the thrust was straight into the heart, through the ribs.

In Jawa ordinary keris were used, but I have also seen, and own, some Javanese keris that are Javanese versions of a keris panjang.I do not know the purpose of these Javanese long keris, but it is certain they could not have been used as items of dress.

I have in my collection a Brunei keris which seems to be a normal version of the Brunei Moro-style keris; this keris was used for state executions in Brunei from---I think---1842.

PenangsangII · 21st June 2007, 01:27 AM

Hello all,

I agree with Kai that despite the panjang's use as a status wear and excecution implement, it's still battle worthy.

According to Malay blade culture, weapons especially keris including the panjang, are not to be clashed with another weapon. That being said, the panjang is used as a weapon by employing silat principle (which I believe is very hard to be demonstrated here in the forum) whereby the keris wielders normally fight in circular motions. I think the best analogy is if we can think of western boxing - feint, duck, jab etc without having to block opponent's strikes.

The use of pasikutan sized blade is slightly different although the principle is the same. A Malay warrior normally will stand side way (sendeng), and will use the sarung to parry another blade (only when necessary) and will strike with the keris with another hand without having to surge forward with the right leg - again, think western boxing.

Pangeran Datu · 21st June 2007, 08:59 AM

AsWrWb

Hi Eli,

First of all, I’m not absolutely sure what you mean by ‘Keris Panjang’ (= Long Keris).

If by Keris Panjang you mean an oversized keris, then they were usually used for ceremonies. Among the oversized Kerises in my collection, I have a wavy Jawa blade that is about 90cm. long, about 1.5 cm. thick at its thickest point and with a ganja about 12 cm. in length; I have even LARGER Sundangs.

However, if you’re referring to the slim, long-bladed keris being touted as ‘Executioner Keris’, then here is my take:

This type of keris originated in central Sumatra around 15th – 16th C, in a place called Bangkinang. A Bangkinang keris is usually between about 50 cm – 70 cm. Apart from its elongated straight blade, also characteristic of the Bangkinang keris is its very ornate scabbard, with the cross-piece being generally and notionally, a crescent moon.
It was mainly the preserve of the local aristocracy/functionaries.
When Bangkinang was thrust into prominence, its keris became a saleable commodity.
This spread its manufacture to other areas, which created their own copies.
It became popular among peninsular Malays and was probably enhanced by the fact that at least one of its notable families had roots in Bangkinang.
This type of keris also became popular among seamen, especially Bugis seamen, who preferred a shorter version, about 40 cm. – 50 cm. in length (more suitable for shipboard use). Thus the term ‘Bahari’ was coined (bahar = sea).

The Bangkinang Long Keris and versions of it are spread throughout the archipelago, e.g. Lombok, Java, Borneo, Sumatra, Malay Peninsula. Some versions are also wavy-bladed.
How it evolved into an ‘executioner keris, a symbol of authority etc. could be due to many factors.

WRT … Executions… Traditionally, particularly in Java, keris executions were carried out using normal kerises (whatever was being worn at the time, there was no special type of ‘execution’ keris). It was reserved for the execution of members of the aristocracy/upper class and carried out by ‘peers’. Only on rare occasions would a mere palace guard/soldier be given authority to carry out an execution using a keris and then, usually using the condemned’s own.
Lesser mortals were subject to beheadings and the like.
This changed by the time of Mataram (Islam), when even aristocrats such as regents could be subject to beheadings.

Cheers.

WsWrWb

BluErf · 23rd June 2007, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Hello all,

I agree with Kai that despite the panjang's use as a status wear and excecution implement, it's still battle worthy.

The keris panjang, in my opinion, is the equivalent of the ceremonial mace/scepter in European parliaments, and before that, symbol of Aristocratic power. We often see keris panjang in the collections of royal families, and they also find themselves incorporated into state emblems and royal family emblems. So the keris panjang is a symbol of power, authority, and maybe to a lesser extent - royalty (Which is associated with the former 2).

As an executioner's weapon? I suppose anything can be used as an executioner's weapon, even a lowly stone from the ground. Hence, the keris panjang could have been used as such, but it may be difficult to say it was the main purpose for its existence.

As a fighting weapon? Perhaps if its the only weapon we could get our hands on in an emergency, it would do. But we should probably consider "balance" in evaluating whether a weapon is suitable for combat. A keris panjang, especially the larger ones, are poorly balanced. The weight is in the top 1/3 or 1/2 of the blade (or the "foible"), and the tang is short, and the hilt does not provide sufficient counterweight. Hence, as a fighting weapon, the keris panjang feels "dead" in the hand. Grip-wise, the thumb and fore-finger must pinch the picetan and the aring rests on the base of the fore-finger. Its an ok grip if one does not move the keris panjang much, but in a fighting situation, the aring and the greneng, combined with the momentum caused by the concentration of weight in the foible, would probably rub the skin of the forefinger raw. Such a problem would not be so bad in a normal short keris because of much better size and balance characteristics. So I am of the opinion that keris panjang was not intended to be a fighting weapon, though it could be used in a pinch.

BluErf · 23rd June 2007, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

AsWrWb

This spread its manufacture to other areas, which created their own copies.
It became popular among peninsular Malays and was probably enhanced by the fact that at least one of its notable families had roots in Bangkinang.
This type of keris also became popular among seamen, especially Bugis seamen, who preferred a shorter version, about 40 cm. – 50 cm. in length (more suitable for shipboard use). Thus the term ‘Bahari’ was coined (bahar = sea).

Hello Pangeran Datu,

That was an interesting take on the spread of the keris panjang. It sounds plausible, just wondering if you could share the source of the information please. Thanks.

On the bahari keris, it is my experience that most bahari keris were found in Minangkabau. In fact 70% of the kerises from Minangkabau seems to be of that form. As for the Bugis, I have not seen any of their kerises featuring bahari blades. The closest is probably the sepokal keris blades (or "claw"-shaped blades).

PenangsangII · 23rd June 2007, 05:01 AM

Blu, I am not sure I understand what you mean by saying panjang is poorly balanced. From my experience in handling the panjang (around 16 to 18" in length), the blade profile which is (normally)thick at the base and very thin towards the tip, along with almost 3" long of the tang in the tapak kuda hilt, is very well balanced although less maneuvourble compares to pasikutan sized keris. Furthermore, all the panjang that I have seen are tempered about 3 quarter from tip to base, which indicates killing purpose.

Regarding the bahari, I thought it is a name of a steel / iron. It also means something very valuable eg. gold used to be weighed in bahar such as one bahar of gold.

Yes I agree with Blu that Bugis seamen would normally carry the sepokal keris instead of Bahari which I also agree that it is of Minang's origin.

Newsteel · 23rd June 2007, 07:04 AM

BluErf has briefed it good and I support the comment that it is not really use for fighting weapon. More of showing royalty legacy, power, authority and status.

The understanding from some of keris panjang (aka keris penyalang, executioner) close match to rapier merely meant for its lengthy and narrow blade but not for its purposes or functionality. If one has to compare (functionnally) to rapier, then pedang or klewang would be a close match.

Bahari also means olden days, primitive age (in malay dahulu kala, kuno).

BluErf · 24th June 2007, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Blu, I am not sure I understand what you mean by saying panjang is poorly balanced. From my experience in handling the panjang (around 16 to 18" in length), the blade profile which is (normally)thick at the base and very thin towards the tip, along with almost 3" long of the tang in the tapak kuda hilt, is very well balanced although less maneuvourble compares to pasikutan sized keris. Furthermore, all the panjang that I have seen are tempered about 3 quarter from tip to base, which indicates killing purpose.

Regarding the bahari, I thought it is a name of a steel / iron. It also means something very valuable eg. gold used to be weighed in bahar such as one bahar of gold.

Yes I agree with Blu that Bugis seamen would normally carry the sepokal keris instead of Bahari which I also agree that it is of Minang's origin.

Hello Penangsang,

Yes, panjangs have thick bases (sor-soran) which tapers into thinner tips, but because of the length of it and the comparatively light-weight tang/hilt, the weight still gets concentrated in the top 1/2 or 1/3 of the blade. The panjang is not a slashing/chopping weapon, so a point of balance in the top 1/2 of the blade would make it unwieldy.

Furthermore, the short tang and the tapak kuda hilt (which is usually made out of light tandok) is very light in comparison to a rapier/small sword guard/tang/hilt combined. So it does not provide sufficient counterbalance. Another point - I'm not sure if I've seen panjangs (old ones, not the newly made ones) with 3 inch tangs. The ones I've seen (without cut tang) are maybe 2 - 2.5 inches. Perhaps you could share some pics of your panjang please? Which region does the panjang come from? I'd be interested to know please.

It is difficult to explain in words why the keris panjang feels dead in the hand compared to the rapier/small sword. Perhaps the best way is to handle a real rapier/small sword to get I mean by good balance. The sword feels 'alive' in the hand. When you wield it, it feels like it can "jump" at the opponent when you thrust out, but it doesn't "pull" your hand when you reach the end of the thrust. When you want to withdraw, it comes back quickly. I don't get the feeling with a keris panjang. Maybe it's also to do with the shape of the grip. However, I do notice that my forefinger's base feels a bit hurt after wielding the panjang for a while.

Yes, keris panjang are tempered along much of the length. I have one that is tempered 80% of the length. Others half or 2/3 of length. However, tempering may be accord it some semblance of functionality, but does not mean it is really used.

rahman · 24th June 2007, 06:28 AM

Quote:

On the bahari keris, it is my experience that most bahari keris were found in Minangkabau. In fact 70% of the kerises from Minangkabau seems to be of that form.

Blu is quite correct. The bahari was the weapon fo choice for Minang traders and travelers, and there were many of them who followed the old Minang tradition of 'merantau' (in search of one's fortune).

The Bangkinang provencnace of the keris panjang, anak alang and bahari was recorded by the late Mr Bambang in his Ensiklopedi Keris. Bangkinang was a transit point for Minang travelers from West Sumatra going to East Sumatra, and the keris from this area became popular. The bahari, he argued, proved popular as it was easily concealed.

Bambang, however, did not explain why the panjang should be adopted as a symbol of authority. Many chieftains of old Negeri Sembilan have keris panjang as part of their regalia.

Indeed, old Malay custom dictated that only datos and penghulus were mpowered to use the panjang for executions. The royal method for execution was beheading, and a sword was used for this purpose.

If you look at 19th Century photos of the regalia of many sultans, the sword and the panjang were carried by court retainers, not by the sultan himself. This is a more recent development, as seen by the Yang Di Pertuan Agung carrying a keris panjang as part of his royal outfit.

It is also worth noting that the keris panjang described in the Hikayat Hang Tuah and Sejarah Melayu is different from the ones we see today. The keris panjang in the classics was sued as a slashing weapon, not as a stabber.

Yes, it would be interesting to trace back the development of the panjang, anak alang and bahari.

PenangsangII · 25th June 2007, 04:42 AM

Sorry Blu, I cant provide a picture of the keris panjangs I used to hold because they are not mine. Come to think of it again, I have to agree with you keris panjang is not very well balanced compare to the normal sized keris, but it still can be used as a good weapon (if no other weapon is at hand).

Newsteel, your comparing the rapier with klewang is like comparing apple & orange. I think a rapier should be compared to the Javanese tempius or pedang sodok.

In addition, pls bear in mind, keris is to be used as a weapon with the Malay combat mentality that is not to take on the opponents strength heads on. It is somewhat like aikido principle - circular motion, use of opponent's force against him etc. Also, western boxing principle, the quick jab but to the body instead of the head, with a clenched fist - the way anyone would grip a keris, then everything would make sense.

A keris bearer in those days had to engage in fights not only againt another keris bearer but also those armed with pedang, klewang, tombak etc. So, to engage those with heavier weapons heads on was a plain stupidity unless the keris bearer employed the above tactics & techniques.

PenangsangII · 25th June 2007, 06:07 AM

I would like all of you to imagine this ......

You are a Malay king in the 15th century. Your city fortress has been under siege by your bitter enemy for almost 3 months. With more army that the enemy has, and you are cut out of supplies, they finally overrun your city. Your soldiers are either dead, taken captives then killed, or running away, you are stuck in the palace without anyway of escape. Your enemy soldies are by now at the palace main door, and it is only a matter of time before the can force their way in.

Your only defence are the bodyguards that are loyal to you, but their number is only 15 men, armed with spears, pedang and keris. You are only armed with a keris panjang and a keris pusaka / pandak tucked in your waist. Surrender is not an option for you as you are a very proud king, and you know that you will be killed anyway if taken captive.

Now, the palace door finally breaks, and hundreds of the enemy soldiers are forcing their way in. A few of your bodyguards are circling you as the last line of defence. You also choose to fight and die honorably......and come the hardest part. Which keris would you unsheath first?

milandro · 8th March 2024, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

It is also worth noting that the keris panjang described in the Hikayat Hang Tuah and Sejarah Melayu is different from the ones we see today. The keris panjang in the classics was sued as a slashing weapon, not as a stabber.

.

Due to the purchase of a panjan I have developed an interest in this weapon hence the resurrection of a couple of threads.

If the Panjang was the Indonesian rapier equivalent was this a weapon intended to perform as a slashing weapon, as well as a thrusting weapon ?

I read that the weapon that many consider only a status weapon , the Panjang, was actually used but wouldn't it need to be sharpened on the double edge?

I would like to hear some MORE well informed opinions, and even more I would like a video to show the handling of a Panjang as a weapon to thrust or slash or both. There are many videos on YouTube on other weapons but I failed to find this one.

David · 8th March 2024, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

Due to the purchase of a panjan I have developed an interest in this weapon hence the resurrection of a couple of threads.

If the Panjang was the Indonesian rapier equivalent was this a weapon intended to perform as a slashing weapon, as well as a thrusting weapon ?

I read that the weapon that many consider only a status weapon , the Panjang, was actually used but wouldn't it need to be sharpened on the double edge?

I would like to hear some MORE well informed opinions, and even more I would like a video to show the handling of a Panjang as a weapon to thrust or slash or both. There are many videos on YouTube on other weapons but I failed to find this one.

I don't know of any evidence that would support the use of the panjang as a slashing weapon, nor do i believe you are likely to find any videos showing it used as a weapon. I have heard the story that it was developed because of the European rapier and i don't completely dismiss that possibility, though i also have not seen any specific evidence of it either. But even if it were, i don't believe it was ever intended to function like a rapier. The first thing we need to consider if we are even going to entertain this notion is the length of the tang and the means by which the blade is connected to the hilt. There is simply no way a keris panjang could be used as a dueling weapon with any practicality. The pesi would simply break under the pressure of slashing or clashing with another blade or the blade itself would simply fly out of its hilt.
I believe that first and foremost the panjang was a status weapon. This can be partly supported simply by the fact that there aren't nearly as many of them as their are normal length keris. It is not an everyman's keris, but one that would be carried by someone with some level of higher societial status. Of course this is only what seems logical to me, not something i can refer to any specific reference material on. I don't know that it has really been a subject that has been investigated all that much though.
Now, the panjang has been called an executioner's keris for some time, so this might point to a practical application, though not an actual martial one. My own thoughts on this are not that the panjang was specifically designed or intended for executions, but rather that it is a person of status that would have the authority to execute someone and therefore that type of blade might have been employed that way. Given the method of inserting the tip of the blade downward at the clavicle though to the heart to perform execution, the long blade of the panjang would probably serve well for this without the need for it to be particularly edge sharp. But i doubt that the vast majority of keris panjang were never used in that manner.

milandro · 9th March 2024, 08:54 AM

the Keris Panjang may very well have been used predominately as a ceremonial weapon, yet the construction, at least of the one I have, is one of a true weapon (as many western ceremonial weapons too have ) with a fuller running in the center ( with two consequent risers to give rigidity) almost the whole length of the blade and a forte with a long sogokan to strengthen the blade where it matters for use that may support at least some slashing intentions. Did I mention that the blade appears to be hardened? The legend of the execution is supported by very few accounts and it doesn't take a great anatomist to see that a 35cm blade would be more than apt to pierce the heart from the shoulder collar bone , so, making mine a 65cm blade is , quite literally, an overkill!

True the tang, the pesi, won't be long and wide enough though. to support much slashing .

This is my Panjang. It came with a king fisher hilt which I don't think it is the proper one and so I am replacing it (see other thread on the Pattani hilts on panjangs).

about videos, there are many silat video's displaying fighting techniques on you tube, it is always possible that some would show Panjang use.

on you tube you can also see videos from Malay makers and you see how condiderably simpler the construction of more modern Panjang is let alone the fact that the modern ones seem often to show pamor which the older ones don't have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAqdWEHhvV4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlEesFQyamg&t=747s

David · 10th March 2024, 12:41 AM

That's a really beautiful panjang Milandro. I love that really unusual greneng variation. I have never seen that before. Someone (not me LOL!) might be able to pinpoint the origin of this blade with that clue. I'm thinking perhaps more Peninsula than Sumatra.
Neither of the panjang shown in the videos have hilts that are generally seen on old panjang as far as i know, but there is probably some variation depending on originating culture. Here is my example.

Pendita65 · 10th March 2024, 12:47 PM

Could not resist after seeing these beauties to share my Keris. I bought it and the blade could not go inside with the last ten cm. After close inspection at home it turned out the warangka was reglued wrong. Had to take it of from the gander repair the lips that go inside the warangka and reguleren it all together. It has a greenish horn warangka and tip on the bottom. Silver cup.

Regards from Amsterdam.

Martin

Sajen · 10th March 2024, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

.... and you see how condiderably simpler the construction of more modern Panjang is let alone the fact that the modern ones seem often to show pamor which the older ones don't have.

That is so not true! There are antique panjang blades with pamor like you can see by one of my examples.

milandro · 10th March 2024, 06:48 PM

well, obviously , as you show, there are some examples such as these .

Interesting though the fact that the blades with pamor in the examples above seem to show no fuller and construction similar to the modern example with pamor. Maybe some forging reason why that is?

Sajen · 10th March 2024, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

well, obviously , as you show, there are some examples such as these .

Interesting though the fact that the blades with pamor in the examples above seem to show no fuller and construction similar to the modern example with pamor. Maybe some forging reason why that is?

I frankly have no clue!

I only know that the construction is called kapit, see here for more info: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=panjang

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 10th March 2024, 08:54 PM

When a pamor blade is made it is usually made of a very thin steel core and with a plate of pamor material welded to each face of the steel core.

If deep fullers & other carving is added to the blade it will cut through the pamor plates and expose the plain material of the core, thus losing the enhancement of pamor.

We see pretty much the same thing with Javanese & Balinese blades, it comes down to whether we want a blade with pamor or a blade with carved enhancements.

There is a way of making a blade where we can have our cake & eat it too, & that is to make the entire central body of the blade of pamor material, & then weld an edge into this pamor, but this method of construction is very seldom encountered, & I have not seen a blade made in this way that is younger than a couple of hundred years old.

The word "kapit" is Malay, it means to support on each side. My understanding of this word when applied to keris is that it refers to a blade that has had part of the blade rivetted to the other part of the blade. However, I guess that it could also apply to a pamor blade, because the core of a pamor blade is supported on either side by the pamor material.

Sajen · 10th March 2024, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When a pamor blade is made it is usually made of a very thin steel core and with a plate of pamor material welded to each face of the steel core.

If deep fullers & other carving is added to the blade it will cut through the pamor plates and expose the plain material of the core, thus losing the enhancement of pamor.

Thank you Alan, sounds logical!

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 10th March 2024, 10:13 PM

Not just logical Detlef, actual as well:-

think of a chocolate cake

nice, thick, rich, moist choccy cake

tastes great

now Grandma slaps thick, high qual Belgium chocolate icing onto it

she adds the thick, freshly whipped cream

then some maraschino cherries

looks fantastic

blows away the diet with one slice

little Teddy sees that cake

Little Teddy loves choccy icing

and cream, and cherries

Little Teddy got no weight problem

he takes a spoon to Grandma's choccy masterpiece and removes all that enhancement

what everybody else is left with is unenhanced chocolate cake

same as keris:- scrape off the pamor, what you got is plain old garden quality steel.

19th June 2007, 07:57 PM	#1
eli Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon US Posts: 21	The Purpose of Keris Panjang Hi I am a long time viewer but only second or third time thread starter. I asked these questions on Keris Panjang a while ago but because I'm still interested I am starting a new thread about it to see if there's any fresh information on the subject. Questions below- I have always wondered on the role Keris Panjang plays in Indonesian society. I have come to understand that it is meant for judges, kings or people who have the right to execute somebody. But is its role first and foremost as a weapon of execution or as a symbol of power? Does anybody know when the first keris Panjang started showing up? Does anybody know why Keris panjang seem to be mainly made in Sumatra and Malaysia and what is its role in these societies? Thanks for any help in advance!-Eli

23rd June 2007, 07:04 AM	#15
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	BluErf has briefed it good and I support the comment that it is not really use for fighting weapon. More of showing royalty legacy, power, authority and status. The understanding from some of keris panjang (aka keris penyalang, executioner) close match to rapier merely meant for its lengthy and narrow blade but not for its purposes or functionality. If one has to compare (functionnally) to rapier, then pedang or klewang would be a close match. Bahari also means olden days, primitive age (in malay dahulu kala, kuno). Last edited by Newsteel; 23rd June 2007 at 09:19 AM.

25th June 2007, 06:07 AM	#19
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Story to ponder I would like all of you to imagine this ...... You are a Malay king in the 15th century. Your city fortress has been under siege by your bitter enemy for almost 3 months. With more army that the enemy has, and you are cut out of supplies, they finally overrun your city. Your soldiers are either dead, taken captives then killed, or running away, you are stuck in the palace without anyway of escape. Your enemy soldies are by now at the palace main door, and it is only a matter of time before the can force their way in. Your only defence are the bodyguards that are loyal to you, but their number is only 15 men, armed with spears, pedang and keris. You are only armed with a keris panjang and a keris pusaka / pandak tucked in your waist. Surrender is not an option for you as you are a very proud king, and you know that you will be killed anyway if taken captive. Now, the palace door finally breaks, and hundreds of the enemy soldiers are forcing their way in. A few of your bodyguards are circling you as the last line of defence. You also choose to fight and die honorably......and come the hardest part. Which keris would you unsheath first?

9th March 2024, 08:54 AM	#22
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 419	the Keris Panjang may very well have been used predominately as a ceremonial weapon, yet the construction, at least of the one I have, is one of a true weapon (as many western ceremonial weapons too have ) with a fuller running in the center ( with two consequent risers to give rigidity) almost the whole length of the blade and a forte with a long sogokan to strengthen the blade where it matters for use that may support at least some slashing intentions. Did I mention that the blade appears to be hardened? The legend of the execution is supported by very few accounts and it doesn't take a great anatomist to see that a 35cm blade would be more than apt to pierce the heart from the shoulder collar bone , so, making mine a 65cm blade is , quite literally, an overkill! True the tang, the pesi, won't be long and wide enough though. to support much slashing . This is my Panjang. It came with a king fisher hilt which I don't think it is the proper one and so I am replacing it (see other thread on the Pattani hilts on panjangs). about videos, there are many silat video's displaying fighting techniques on you tube, it is always possible that some would show Panjang use. on you tube you can also see videos from Malay makers and you see how condiderably simpler the construction of more modern Panjang is let alone the fact that the modern ones seem often to show pamor which the older ones don't have https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAqdWEHhvV4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlEesFQyamg&t=747s Attached Images Last edited by milandro; 9th March 2024 at 09:09 AM.

10th March 2024, 12:41 AM	#23
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,025	That's a really beautiful panjang Milandro. I love that really unusual greneng variation. I have never seen that before. Someone (not me LOL!) might be able to pinpoint the origin of this blade with that clue. I'm thinking perhaps more Peninsula than Sumatra. Neither of the panjang shown in the videos have hilts that are generally seen on old panjang as far as i know, but there is probably some variation depending on originating culture. Here is my example. Attached Images

20th June 2007, 09:25 AM	#3
eli Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon US Posts: 21	From my knowledge the therory of combating rapiers has been but to rest do to the short tang on a keris which would make it easy to break during a fight. And many have also commented on the overall lack of efficency it would have compared to a rapier. Finally, if we look at where we see keris Panjang( often with royality or high ranking offcials) it just doesnt add up for me.

20th June 2007, 07:15 PM	#6
eli Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portland, Oregon US Posts: 21	Thank you Kai for explaining the rapier Idea better. Another thought to think about is its brother forms Anak Along and Bahari, did these forms preceed the Panjang or come after it?

21st June 2007, 12:53 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Regarding keris used for legal execution. In Bali there are reports of ordinary keris being used for this purpose, and the thrust was straight into the heart, through the ribs. In Jawa ordinary keris were used, but I have also seen, and own, some Javanese keris that are Javanese versions of a keris panjang.I do not know the purpose of these Javanese long keris, but it is certain they could not have been used as items of dress. I have in my collection a Brunei keris which seems to be a normal version of the Brunei Moro-style keris; this keris was used for state executions in Brunei from---I think---1842.

21st June 2007, 01:27 AM	#10
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Hello all, I agree with Kai that despite the panjang's use as a status wear and excecution implement, it's still battle worthy. According to Malay blade culture, weapons especially keris including the panjang, are not to be clashed with another weapon. That being said, the panjang is used as a weapon by employing silat principle (which I believe is very hard to be demonstrated here in the forum) whereby the keris wielders normally fight in circular motions. I think the best analogy is if we can think of western boxing - feint, duck, jab etc without having to block opponent's strikes. The use of pasikutan sized blade is slightly different although the principle is the same. A Malay warrior normally will stand side way (sendeng), and will use the sarung to parry another blade (only when necessary) and will strike with the keris with another hand without having to surge forward with the right leg - again, think western boxing.

21st June 2007, 08:59 AM	#11
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	AsWrWb Hi Eli, First of all, I’m not absolutely sure what you mean by ‘Keris Panjang’ (= Long Keris). If by Keris Panjang you mean an oversized keris, then they were usually used for ceremonies. Among the oversized Kerises in my collection, I have a wavy Jawa blade that is about 90cm. long, about 1.5 cm. thick at its thickest point and with a ganja about 12 cm. in length; I have even LARGER Sundangs. However, if you’re referring to the slim, long-bladed keris being touted as ‘Executioner Keris’, then here is my take: This type of keris originated in central Sumatra around 15th – 16th C, in a place called Bangkinang. A Bangkinang keris is usually between about 50 cm – 70 cm. Apart from its elongated straight blade, also characteristic of the Bangkinang keris is its very ornate scabbard, with the cross-piece being generally and notionally, a crescent moon. It was mainly the preserve of the local aristocracy/functionaries. When Bangkinang was thrust into prominence, its keris became a saleable commodity. This spread its manufacture to other areas, which created their own copies. It became popular among peninsular Malays and was probably enhanced by the fact that at least one of its notable families had roots in Bangkinang. This type of keris also became popular among seamen, especially Bugis seamen, who preferred a shorter version, about 40 cm. – 50 cm. in length (more suitable for shipboard use). Thus the term ‘Bahari’ was coined (bahar = sea). The Bangkinang Long Keris and versions of it are spread throughout the archipelago, e.g. Lombok, Java, Borneo, Sumatra, Malay Peninsula. Some versions are also wavy-bladed. How it evolved into an ‘executioner keris, a symbol of authority etc. could be due to many factors. WRT … Executions… Traditionally, particularly in Java, keris executions were carried out using normal kerises (whatever was being worn at the time, there was no special type of ‘execution’ keris). It was reserved for the execution of members of the aristocracy/upper class and carried out by ‘peers’. Only on rare occasions would a mere palace guard/soldier be given authority to carry out an execution using a keris and then, usually using the condemned’s own. Lesser mortals were subject to beheadings and the like. This changed by the time of Mataram (Islam), when even aristocrats such as regents could be subject to beheadings. Cheers. WsWrWb

23rd June 2007, 05:01 AM	#14
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Blu, I am not sure I understand what you mean by saying panjang is poorly balanced. From my experience in handling the panjang (around 16 to 18" in length), the blade profile which is (normally)thick at the base and very thin towards the tip, along with almost 3" long of the tang in the tapak kuda hilt, is very well balanced although less maneuvourble compares to pasikutan sized keris. Furthermore, all the panjang that I have seen are tempered about 3 quarter from tip to base, which indicates killing purpose. Regarding the bahari, I thought it is a name of a steel / iron. It also means something very valuable eg. gold used to be weighed in bahar such as one bahar of gold. Yes I agree with Blu that Bugis seamen would normally carry the sepokal keris instead of Bahari which I also agree that it is of Minang's origin.

25th June 2007, 04:42 AM	#18
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Sorry Blu, I cant provide a picture of the keris panjangs I used to hold because they are not mine. Come to think of it again, I have to agree with you keris panjang is not very well balanced compare to the normal sized keris, but it still can be used as a good weapon (if no other weapon is at hand). Newsteel, your comparing the rapier with klewang is like comparing apple & orange. I think a rapier should be compared to the Javanese tempius or pedang sodok. In addition, pls bear in mind, keris is to be used as a weapon with the Malay combat mentality that is not to take on the opponents strength heads on. It is somewhat like aikido principle - circular motion, use of opponent's force against him etc. Also, western boxing principle, the quick jab but to the body instead of the head, with a clenched fist - the way anyone would grip a keris, then everything would make sense. A keris bearer in those days had to engage in fights not only againt another keris bearer but also those armed with pedang, klewang, tombak etc. So, to engage those with heavier weapons heads on was a plain stupidity unless the keris bearer employed the above tactics & techniques.

10th March 2024, 12:47 PM	#24
Pendita65 Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 71	Could not resist after seeing these beauties to share my Keris. I bought it and the blade could not go inside with the last ten cm. After close inspection at home it turned out the warangka was reglued wrong. Had to take it of from the gander repair the lips that go inside the warangka and reguleren it all together. It has a greenish horn warangka and tip on the bottom. Silver cup. Regards from Amsterdam. Martin Attached Images

10th March 2024, 06:48 PM	#26
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 419	well, obviously , as you show, there are some examples such as these . Interesting though the fact that the blades with pamor in the examples above seem to show no fuller and construction similar to the modern example with pamor. Maybe some forging reason why that is?

10th March 2024, 08:54 PM	#28
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	When a pamor blade is made it is usually made of a very thin steel core and with a plate of pamor material welded to each face of the steel core. If deep fullers & other carving is added to the blade it will cut through the pamor plates and expose the plain material of the core, thus losing the enhancement of pamor. We see pretty much the same thing with Javanese & Balinese blades, it comes down to whether we want a blade with pamor or a blade with carved enhancements. There is a way of making a blade where we can have our cake & eat it too, & that is to make the entire central body of the blade of pamor material, & then weld an edge into this pamor, but this method of construction is very seldom encountered, & I have not seen a blade made in this way that is younger than a couple of hundred years old. The word "kapit" is Malay, it means to support on each side. My understanding of this word when applied to keris is that it refers to a blade that has had part of the blade rivetted to the other part of the blade. However, I guess that it could also apply to a pamor blade, because the core of a pamor blade is supported on either side by the pamor material.

10th March 2024, 10:13 PM	#30
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,700	Not just logical Detlef, actual as well:- think of a chocolate cake nice, thick, rich, moist choccy cake tastes great now Grandma slaps thick, high qual Belgium chocolate icing onto it she adds the thick, freshly whipped cream then some maraschino cherries looks fantastic blows away the diet with one slice little Teddy sees that cake Little Teddy loves choccy icing and cream, and cherries Little Teddy got no weight problem he takes a spoon to Grandma's choccy masterpiece and removes all that enhancement what everybody else is left with is unenhanced chocolate cake same as keris:- scrape off the pamor, what you got is plain old garden quality steel.