Need help with Kris

chopstick_minh · 23rd June 2021, 07:07 PM

Hello everyone!

I am new here, and I recently got into collecting a few blades here and there! It's all very exciting.

I recently acquired this blade from my martial arts instructor.
I think it is a moro Kris?

He said he bought it about 40 years ago from a guy, who was a pilot and who bought it off in Mindanao (sometime during WW2?). Not much to go on.

I am quite lost as I would like to restore this blade to its former glory but I do not trust myself with treating it (some told me to just treat the blade with vinegar, and use epoxy steel (or resin) for the handle.)
The wooden scabbard could use a bit of maintenance too, and I can't help but think there are pieces missing in the blade (another asang-asang?)?

I was wondering if there is anyone who could suggest a place who does restoration. I live in Canada, so shipping to the Philippines is quite costly.

Many thanks!

kai · 25th June 2021, 01:02 AM

Welcome to the forum, Minh!

Yes, Mindanao: Maguindanao and first half of 20th century, I believe.

The piece might well be complete and just need some TLC. With the blade already loose, this might well be feasible for you to do yourself with some help from this forum: Despite a nice blade, it's not a highly valuable piece and IMHO it can cope with some carefully performed learning experiences ... (OTOH, if you want some assistance, Jose is in the US and will certainly be able to lend a helping hand.)

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 25th June 2021, 01:16 AM

Kai once again is on the money. I would posit 1930s-1940s.

I will also note that the copper clamp (baka baka in Maguindanao) has a nicely chased pattern - best I've ever seen. There is a possibility that the pattern is acid etched - better pictures might better determine it is truly chased or etched.

(BTW - I'm Jose)

Also welcome to our little forum!

chopstick_minh · 25th June 2021, 03:32 PM

Thank you very much, Kai, Jose, for the answers! I really appreciate it!
I always want to have an idea of where my blades come from!

I mean when I get it made by the panday himself, at least I know where its from but getting a pre-owned one, I kinda want to know the history of it and its origin (who made it and where).

I cannot tell the difference between acid etching or chasing.
There's a bit of relief on the surface but it's really not deep, so maybe ....not chasing? (I don't know how deep an acid etch will have on the surface either... )

I would very much like to have help into getting this blade back into shape.
Either send it to someone who offer such service or have guidance into how to restore it (treating the blade to get rid of black spots, polish it, repairing the Baka Baka into the handle properly, securing everything, final cutting test)!

Best regards,
Minh

chopstick_minh · 25th June 2021, 03:43 PM

I'm not sure in this zoom in picture of the Baka Baka can help.
The more I look at it, the more I think it's more acid etched?
I mean, if it was chased, wouldn't the lines be deeper, and less precise?

The Baka Baka should be at the end of the handle, yes?
In line with the edge of the blade (same line as my knuckle if I was holding the Kris).

This makes me wonder what is the purpose of the protuded opening on the side of the blade tang in the wooden handle (where you insert the blade).

Would you know?
Did the bladesmith use that opening for a filling?
Epoxy resin for example?

David · 26th June 2021, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I will also note that the copper clamp (baka baka in Maguindanao) has a nicely chased pattern - best I've ever seen. There is a possibility that the pattern is acid etched - better pictures might better determine it is truly chased or etched.

I don't think this pattern is chased. Chasing involves hammering from the reverse side of the metal to push out the pattern on the facing side of the metal. This does not look anything like that to me and the copper is probably too thick for that technique in any case. It could be acid etched i suppose, or simply engraved.
It is a beautiful baca-baca regardless.

Battara · 27th June 2021, 04:26 AM

Actually repousse is from the back then front.

But with the close ups I do agree David that this baka-baka is acid etched. As Chopstick_minh said the designs are not deep enough.

On the blade itself, the work is most likely chased with tempered steel tools (though sometimes engraving is done....)

David · 27th June 2021, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Actually repousse is from the back then front.

But with the close ups I do agree David that this baka-baka is acid etched. As Chopstick_minh said the designs are not deep enough.

On the blade itself, the work is most likely chased with tempered steel tools (though sometimes engraving is done....)

Ah yes, you are correct. I confused myself because repossesse and chasing are often used in conjunction with each other. My bad.

David · 28th June 2021, 12:50 AM

José, i would image that this baca-baca would be an example of chasing. This one is suassa.

Battara · 30th June 2021, 02:41 AM

Oh yes David. Nice example. Suassa? - very nice. And looks Maguindanao.

And yes chasing is part of repousse, and some chasing work can look like repousse, so the confusion is quite understandable.

David · 30th June 2021, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Oh yes David. Nice example. Suassa? - very nice. And looks Maguindanao.

And yes chasing is part of repousse, and some chasing work can look like repousse, so the confusion is quite understandable.

Yes, i have been considering it Maguindanao at least as long as i have understood the differences in Moro styles.
To be honest i have never had the metal tested. But this kris has been in my collection longer than any other. It is in fact the very first ethnographic weapon i ever bought and i have had it since 1982. In almost 40 years i have never had to clean any tarnish off this bit of metal and the colour is right for suassa (though not as coppery as some), so i believe it is a fair bet that it contains a reasonable amount of gold content. It is also a rather high end piece and all the other beautifully crafted fitting are high content silver, so suassa would be fitting.

Battara · 3rd July 2021, 04:37 AM

Oh I'm sure it does, as well as a little more silver in it than others based on the hue of the color.

23rd June 2021, 07:07 PM	#1
chopstick_minh Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Montreal Posts: 3	Need help with Kris Hello everyone! I am new here, and I recently got into collecting a few blades here and there! It's all very exciting. I recently acquired this blade from my martial arts instructor. I think it is a moro Kris? He said he bought it about 40 years ago from a guy, who was a pilot and who bought it off in Mindanao (sometime during WW2?). Not much to go on. I am quite lost as I would like to restore this blade to its former glory but I do not trust myself with treating it (some told me to just treat the blade with vinegar, and use epoxy steel (or resin) for the handle.) The wooden scabbard could use a bit of maintenance too, and I can't help but think there are pieces missing in the blade (another asang-asang?)? I was wondering if there is anyone who could suggest a place who does restoration. I live in Canada, so shipping to the Philippines is quite costly. Many thanks! Attached Images

25th June 2021, 01:16 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Kai once again is on the money. I would posit 1930s-1940s. I will also note that the copper clamp (baka baka in Maguindanao) has a nicely chased pattern - best I've ever seen. There is a possibility that the pattern is acid etched - better pictures might better determine it is truly chased or etched. (BTW - I'm Jose) Also welcome to our little forum! Last edited by Battara; 25th June 2021 at 01:27 AM.

25th June 2021, 03:43 PM	#5
chopstick_minh Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Montreal Posts: 3	I'm not sure in this zoom in picture of the Baka Baka can help. The more I look at it, the more I think it's more acid etched? I mean, if it was chased, wouldn't the lines be deeper, and less precise? The Baka Baka should be at the end of the handle, yes? In line with the edge of the blade (same line as my knuckle if I was holding the Kris). This makes me wonder what is the purpose of the protuded opening on the side of the blade tang in the wooden handle (where you insert the blade). Would you know? Did the bladesmith use that opening for a filling? Epoxy resin for example? Attached Images

28th June 2021, 12:50 AM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,034	José, i would image that this baca-baca would be an example of chasing. This one is suassa. Attached Images

25th June 2021, 01:02 AM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,221	Welcome to the forum, Minh! Yes, Mindanao: Maguindanao and first half of 20th century, I believe. The piece might well be complete and just need some TLC. With the blade already loose, this might well be feasible for you to do yourself with some help from this forum: Despite a nice blade, it's not a highly valuable piece and IMHO it can cope with some carefully performed learning experiences ... (OTOH, if you want some assistance, Jose is in the US and will certainly be able to lend a helping hand.) Regards, Kai

25th June 2021, 03:32 PM	#4
chopstick_minh Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Montreal Posts: 3	Thank you very much, Kai, Jose, for the answers! I really appreciate it! I always want to have an idea of where my blades come from! I mean when I get it made by the panday himself, at least I know where its from but getting a pre-owned one, I kinda want to know the history of it and its origin (who made it and where). I cannot tell the difference between acid etching or chasing. There's a bit of relief on the surface but it's really not deep, so maybe ....not chasing? (I don't know how deep an acid etch will have on the surface either... ) I would very much like to have help into getting this blade back into shape. Either send it to someone who offer such service or have guidance into how to restore it (treating the blade to get rid of black spots, polish it, repairing the Baka Baka into the handle properly, securing everything, final cutting test)! Best regards, Minh

27th June 2021, 04:26 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Actually repousse is from the back then front. But with the close ups I do agree David that this baka-baka is acid etched. As Chopstick_minh said the designs are not deep enough. On the blade itself, the work is most likely chased with tempered steel tools (though sometimes engraving is done....)

30th June 2021, 02:41 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Oh yes David. Nice example. Suassa? - very nice. And looks Maguindanao. And yes chasing is part of repousse, and some chasing work can look like repousse, so the confusion is quite understandable.

3rd July 2021, 04:37 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Oh I'm sure it does, as well as a little more silver in it than others based on the hue of the color.