Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 1st March 2023, 03:28 PM   #1
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 813
Default Scottish targe shield ...

Good Day dear members,

I have this shield for comment :
It was sold as an ''oriental iron shield''
but it looks more like a scottish targe with his celtics patterns...

Old ??
I Don't t know but it seems well made.

Do Scottish or Celtics shield be made of iron ?
Most of them were made of wood and leather covered but I haven't found many posts about this theme,
Targe, scottish targets....

Maybe it's made of brass like highlands targe do more than made of iron ?..
+ it seems to be another under layer, maybe made of wood but it is difficult to say just with the picture...

Any comment is welcomed .

Kind regards
Attached Images
   
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2023, 03:40 PM   #2
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 813
Talking

Back side is strange,
Contrast with reverse side,
Maybe later made ??

Unusual iron fittings and handles
Looks like old pot/cauldron handles ...
Attached Images
 
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2023, 08:26 PM   #3
toaster5sqn
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 67
Default

My gut instinct is a Victorian historicism piece. The arm strap should be leather with a buckle so it can be adjusted to suit the arm and the handle should be straight with square corners to provide a good grip, that curve would be horrible to hold. Also there is no sign that there was ever any padding fitted beneath the grips to cushion the arm.

Robert
toaster5sqn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2023, 09:12 PM   #4
Radboud
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 222
Default

What are the dimensions? It looks small to me.

The screw holes in the 'arm loops' are another concern; countersunk like the one on the left screams more modern construction and like it is meant to be part of a larger display.
Radboud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2023, 06:43 AM   #5
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 813
Default

Hello,
Yes it 's smaller than usual targes : 37cm/14,5 inches in diameter.
Maybe because it s too heavy ?
Deco ( victorian ?) /
or rapported pieces in a smaller circle ??
I can't say much for the moment...
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2023, 12:30 PM   #6
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 813
Default

Glad if you have link for other posts/ site about targes
or a good reference book
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2023, 06:34 PM   #7
BBking
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 66
Default

Small all bronze scottish shield,

Sure not the same but they exists,
earlier target models...
Attached Images
 
BBking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2023, 07:56 PM   #8
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 813
Default

Interesting ! Thank you !!

Can you tell us from wich book the drawings
come from ?
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2023, 11:36 PM   #9
toaster5sqn
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 67
Default

14.5" is way to small for a strapped shield unless for a child and then it would be to heavy. At that size the whole elbow is exposed and that's a big no no, this thing is definitely decorative only.

Robert
toaster5sqn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2023, 12:28 AM   #10
thinreadline
Member
 
thinreadline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wirral
Posts: 1,204
Default

I have seen similar supposed targes which were actually repurposed decorative side table tops
thinreadline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2023, 10:23 AM   #11
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 479
Default modern targe

I was told by the vendor (selling his deceased father's collection: what a dispiriting task) that this was made in the 1960s as an exact reproduction by someone who specialised in the activity.
I was never given the name and wondered if anyone could verify this detail and perhaps elucidate further.
Included was this custom made dirk (with an 11inch blade) commissioned by a member of the McCulloch clan in the early 1900s but I don't think the targe is that old.
Attached Images
   
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th March 2023, 12:00 AM   #12
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,135
Default

I agree - looks like a Victorian copy to me too. But a very nice one. i think they are becoming collectibles in their own right.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th March 2023, 06:12 PM   #13
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 813
Default

Hello and thank you all for the messages,

I like your dirk urbanspaceman, can you show us the blade please !

I will post more close up pictures when I will receive it .
I'll with try to remove the iron back with handles , see if there is something interesting behind /old wood / old nails ...
perhaps/ sure nothing special but I like to dig ...
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2023, 08:37 PM   #14
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 479
Default Dirk in detail

Here are the details I have unearthed to date:
This dirk was commissioned as a formal dress piece by a member of Clan McCulloch and fashioned in the style of the late 1600s/early 1700s. Its 11˝" blade is stamped by Forsyth's. Around the top of the scabbard/sheath is inscribed "Vi et animo McCulloch" which is the clan's heraldic motto and translates as "By strength and Courage".
As had been customary for centuries, gentlemen's outfitters supplied swords and military accessories to their customers, often commissioning personalised pieces and custom designs from reputable craftsmen. R.W Forsyth was born in the Lothians, went to Glasgow as a nineteen-year old, and gained experience in clothing retailing with several city firms. In 1872 he set up in business as hosier, glover and shirt-maker in Renfield Street; then, on the opposite side of Argyle Street, Forsyth’s went to the expense of installing exterior electric lighting to illuminate their windows after dark – a first in Glasgow – and so make their second store a magnet for the public.
Attached Images
    
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th March 2023, 09:01 PM   #15
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 479
Default ps

It's Keith (Fisher)
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2023, 03:02 PM   #16
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin View Post
Hello and thank you all for the messages,



I will post more close up pictures when I will receive it .
I'll with try to remove the iron back with handles , see if there is something interesting behind /old wood / old nails ...
perhaps/ sure nothing special but I like to dig ...
I Think you may find that this is a Victorian electrotype replica. Widely used in the 1840s/50s to produce dimensionally accurate copies of museum originals. For those not familiar with the process a flexible mould was made and the interior of the mould dusted with powdered graphite Electrodes were connected to the graphite and copper was electrolytically deposited on the interior surface. The resulting cast was quite thin and usually reinforced with lead solder or pitch. The good news is that the original may still exist somewhere so might be traceable.
Raf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2023, 10:37 AM   #17
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 813
Default

Tadaaa,

this one is sold in an auction, exactly the same, idem in diameter,
sold as a small targe shield / hand use
( Too )expensive...
Attached Images
   
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2023, 10:38 AM   #18
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 813
Default

Expensive fancy deco wall hanger shield
I think but it's ok for me
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2023, 05:18 PM   #19
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 813
Default

Olé !
Attached Images
 
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th September 2023, 02:22 AM   #20
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Indeed a very attractive piece, and even these reproduced examples are wonderful for display as they represent a most important Scottish tradition as key to the Highland warriors armament.

The original targes as per misc. references the Scot's targe was two layers of thin wood, pegged together with opposing grains , and 18 to 21" diameter.
The assembly was covered with hide, and various Celtic and geometric designs in brass or silver studs, nails.
There was a central boss.....often these had a spike or were a brass cup which could be unscrewed in certain cases.

The straps (as already noted) were typically leather with one adjustable for forearm, the other solid for hand hold.

The inside of the targe usually padded with straw, covered by hide, or in cases noted during the Jacobite rebellions, some actually had the red material taken from 'redcoats' uniforms.

These targes were taken after Culloden and dismantled as part of the proscriptions of arms. Many of the boards were indeed used as lids for various urns and household uses.

Original examples are understandably rare, but exist mostly in private clan holdings or museums.
It does not seem that metal examples were used for actual combat, but the baronial parlor decor in Victorian times during the Scottish trends might be appreciated in displays.

There is a reference, "Highland Targets and Other Shields" by James Drummond (1875) which I believe has been reprinted.
Attached Images
 
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2023, 08:42 PM   #21
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 479
Default Targe

I acquired this targe in with a collection of swords I bought.
I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where) that this was made by an acknowledged reproduction expert sometime in the 1960s.
Can anyone tell me anything about it please?
Sorry I hijacked your thread but it seemed opportune.
Attached Images
  
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2023, 08:45 PM   #22
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 264
Default The Genuine Article.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Scot...nWCRGM6lk,st:0

Just click on the above for a video presentation of a proper Scottish Targe... After the 1746 Battle of Culloden these were made illegal .

Peter Hudson
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2023, 11:35 AM   #23
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 479
Default Videos

Thanks Peter.
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2023, 11:58 PM   #24
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,135
Default

Link is not working for me.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2023, 12:05 AM   #25
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 264
Default

Link is working OK

https://www.google.com/search?q=Scot...nWCRGM6lk,st:0

Peter Hudson
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2023, 11:47 AM   #26
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 479
Default Battara

The link doesn't work on my phone but it works fine on my desktop.
Don't know why.
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.