Khanda,what is it?

William.m · 20th May 2006, 07:38 PM

Hello everybody, long time lurker... rare poster.

I have here a Khanda that I bought today at a local antique shop. I know very little about this sword except that that the basket-hilt makes it somewhat of a rarity from what I have read on this forum.

Here are some pictures, and thanks in advance for any info.

Rick · 20th May 2006, 07:42 PM

Hi William ,
Is that a downward curve I see in the blade ?
Or is it an optical delusion ?

William.m · 20th May 2006, 07:45 PM

Haha, it has a very slight inwards curved blade. It is not as much as you think as maybe my photo is a bit off im not sure why it looks so curved!!

I can get some more pictures if you would like.

Regards,

Will

Rick · 20th May 2006, 07:47 PM

More pictures are always useful .

William.m · 20th May 2006, 08:16 PM

Alrighty, have a reduced size picture here so that you can see the inward curve.
Also there is a closeup of the hilt.

ariel · 20th May 2006, 11:23 PM

My understanding that Khanda usually has re-inforcing plates on both edges, so that the upper one remains sharp for ! 1/3 and the lower one for !2/3-3/4 of the length. I looked at gatka videos where they use Khanda and the fencer kept his left hand on the back side of the blade, directing the sword.
This one is , IMHO, in Sowth Indian style (pierced guard) and the entire style of the guard is of a transition between Old Indian and basket styles. I would guess 17-18th century.
The blade... Well, it depens if one wants to call it a Patissa or a Sossun Pata (because of the downward curvature). I would not be surprised if it was wootz.
My 5 cents worth....

Rick · 20th May 2006, 11:23 PM

Stone shows a similar piece with a slightly downcurved blade . It looks also like the blade has been fairly vigorously cleaned ; regardless of that I like it !
Antique shop find ; boot sale ?
The hilt is quite nice .

William.m · 21st May 2006, 12:45 AM

Ohhh, very interesting! I don't think it is 17th century as the scabbard looks fairly modern, but then again it may just be a recent addition. The hilt certainly looks and feels very old, but the blade itself does not.

Along the blade there is a fuller, which I am assuming has almost dissipeared due to a strong polish over the years.

In regards to the blade having re-inforcing plates, this may had been as if you can see on the pictures just above the guard there is a hole in the blade. Perhaps this was used for attaching these plates?

On monday if the weather is good, I plan to give the blade an acid wash to see if it is indeed wootz steel.

Anyways many thanks to Rick and Ariel, you have been of great help and I will post pictures of my acid wash results.

Regards,

Will

Rick · 21st May 2006, 12:50 AM

Gently with the acid Will ....

ariel · 21st May 2006, 01:56 AM

Oops, I missed the hole!
What it means, beyond doubt, is that the blade/handle marriage is not their first one.
This blade was formerly used for a sword with a real baskethill
handle and was riveted.
This is a replacement; either old (Indians saved handles and used replacement blades) or new.
If the former, it is OK, if the latter...
I have seen several Indian swords, usually with desirable Khanda, Sossun Pata or Tegha blades (all recently made) inserted into old "Khanda" handles and sold for a fortune.
This one does not look new, but just in case, look carefully if there are signs of any new sharpening, whether the steel is soft etc.
Sorry for sounding paranoid, but I gor burned myself...

RSWORD · 21st May 2006, 01:52 PM

To determine if the blade is a new one mounted with an older hilt, or, an old blade that has been buffed up bright, I would view the blade closely as you can beneath the langets. If someone did indeed buff up an older blade, there should be patina or corrosion beneath the langet that you simply cannot reach when buffing. If this area is consistent with the balance of the blade then the buffing was done uniformly before mounting to the hilt. If it has corrosion or dark patina, then the buffing was performed while blade is attached to hilt and may be suggestive the two have been together for awhile. If the blade turns out to be wootz, that is another good sign that the blade is older.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st May 2006, 04:18 PM

Nice pattisa you got – congratulations.
Hilts were reused as well as blades, and when the blades were worn out, they were used to make new blades out of. Some of the pattisa/khanda blades were very flexible, and as they wanted to have a flexible, but not too heavy, but still a stiff blade, they reinforced them. It is however not all the blades which were reinforced. I think reinforcement would need to be fastened at least in two places, so if there is only one hole, close to the hilt, on your sword, I doubt that it was for reinforcement.
Is the mark close to the tip the only on the blade?

Like Rick says, be careful when etching, especially if you have not tried it before, then a search on the forum for etching might be a good idea.

ariel · 21st May 2006, 07:40 PM

I have an old Tulwar with the European blade and it has a hole in the middle of the blade (just like this one) and it is surrounded by a very faint imprint of an old reinforcing part. Obviously, it used to be riveted to another handle (Basket hilt-type). The cementing is very old, and the patination is uniform along the entire blade. No doubt the two parts lived together in harmony for a very, very long time.
The practice of remounting blades was indeed very widespread and the "hole" should in no way serve as the final evidence of forgery.
However, in this day and age one cannot be too paranoid....

Tim Simmons · 21st May 2006, 08:07 PM

I was looking at a very nice Indian talwar with a wootz blade before I bought the Kaskara, There is something about the combination of good cloth scabbard and newish blade and an old not original handle that puts me off the money asked for some of these things which could just be paranoia.

There is no reason why this is not a weapon put together in the late 19th century for display purposes, as the use of such weapons became more anachronistic. The Indian Army was I believe in some ways better equipped than the regular British army certainly the Indian Army pattern sabres seem a lot better than those of the home army.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st May 2006, 09:30 PM

Ariel, that you have an old tulwar with faint spurs of reinforcement does not proof anything, when it comes to this sword – tulwars did not, normally as far as I know have reinforcements.

Tim, the scabbards is so far of ‘no’ interest, and your postulation 'that there is no reason why this is not a weapon put together in the late 19th century for display purposes, as the use of such weapons became more anachronistic', is only a postulate.

ariel · 21st May 2006, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ariel, that you have an old tulwar with faint spurs of reinforcement does not proof anything, when it comes to this sword – tulwars did not, normally as far as I know have reinforcements.

Tim, the scabbards is so far of ‘no’ interest, and your postulation 'that there is no reason why this is not a weapon put together in the late 19th century for display purposes, as the use of such weapons became more anachronistic', is only a postulate.

Jens,
I know tulwars do not have reinforcements. But a tulwar's blade with a hole and an imprint must have been a part of a sword with reinforcements at some time in its career. That's all.
Proves only one thing: not every remount is a proof of recent "forgery". But we have known it before....

William.m · 21st May 2006, 10:24 PM

Hi guys,

Okay firstly in my opinion I believe that this is indeed an old blade, but has been recently buffed and sharpened. It is quite obvious that the blade has been sharpened and buffed while the blade was still attached to the hilt. This is because you can see where the polish stops just above the guard, and also the sharpening of the blade is very different when you get down to the guard where the style is different.

Also at the bottom of the blade the metal has a dark patina. Secondly the fuller is very shallow and dissipears in some areas, making me belive that the blade was overpolished even more. Adding to this, I can see the two cresent design at least six times on the blade, although one some it is very faint as too much metal has been removed. If you want I can put up some pictures of this.

In answer to a question, the cresent designs are all up near the top of the blade. In the first picture you can see it if you look carefully.

Anyways tomorrow if the weather is good I will give the blade a light acid wash, though there is no need to worry as I have done this before.

Thanks for all the info so far, keep them posts coming in !

Regards,
will

William.m · 22nd May 2006, 11:48 AM

Ladies and Gents, we have Wootz steel !!!

I have been etching the sword this morning using a solution of warm vinigar and soap, and in the steel there is a nice grain showing up. I have checked around on reference sites and this does look like wootz steel so far. Ill post some pictures up later on once I have have finished the etch and cleaned up the blade.

Regards,

Will

William.m · 22nd May 2006, 01:09 PM

Okay here we go, Firstly a close up of the blade showing wootz steel. The other pictures are of the many many cresent designs all over the blade.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd May 2006, 02:20 PM

Ariel, your tulwar sounds like a bit of a puzzle, but it is true, like you write, that not all the swords we see, where the blades and hilts don’t seem to fit, were brought together recently, many of them were brought together a long time ago.

Will, congratulations with the etching, it looks fine to me. Is the pattern dark or light? It is hard to see on the picture.

William.m · 25th May 2006, 05:29 PM

Hello again!

Okay I gave the sword another light wash this morning and here are the results. Now that we know that the blade is made from wootz steel, is there anything else you can tell me about the possible history of this blade, as I would love to know! Cheers!

ariel · 25th May 2006, 09:07 PM

I like the results of your etching process.
Can you give step-by-step recipe?

William.m · 26th May 2006, 11:15 AM

Sure,

Firstly I used a little bowl with a lid to contain the hot solution. The solution itself was a mixture of vinegar, lemon juice and a spot of dishwasher soap.

I don't normally use lemon juice but I was running very low on vinegar. The dishwasher soap is there to break up the surface tension in the solution so you really need a very small amount so that you do not reduce the strength of the solution.

After you have made the mixture heat it up, I use the microwave as it only takes a few seconds.

Make sure that the blade itself is hot, I use either the flame hob or place the blade on top of a metal radiator.

One both are hot, then using whatever you want, cover the blade in the solution. You will have to keep heating up the solution and re-applying as having a hot solution is very important to the success of the etch. Once you have finished neutralise the acid. I use baking powder.
Polish the blade using a non-abrasive polish.

Thats about it really, the longer you do it for the more prominant it will become, but if you etch for too long the pattern will become muddy.

...looks like I went on for a bit there... well thats something for you beginners out there.

Will

20th May 2006, 07:38 PM	#1
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Khanda,what is it? Hello everybody, long time lurker... rare poster. I have here a Khanda that I bought today at a local antique shop. I know very little about this sword except that that the basket-hilt makes it somewhat of a rarity from what I have read on this forum. Here are some pictures, and thanks in advance for any info.

20th May 2006, 07:42 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Hi William , Is that a downward curve I see in the blade ? Or is it an optical delusion ?

20th May 2006, 07:45 PM	#3
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Haha, it has a very slight inwards curved blade. It is not as much as you think as maybe my photo is a bit off im not sure why it looks so curved!! I can get some more pictures if you would like. Regards, Will

20th May 2006, 07:47 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	More pictures are always useful .

20th May 2006, 08:16 PM	#5
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Alrighty, have a reduced size picture here so that you can see the inward curve. Also there is a closeup of the hilt.

20th May 2006, 11:23 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My understanding that Khanda usually has re-inforcing plates on both edges, so that the upper one remains sharp for ! 1/3 and the lower one for !2/3-3/4 of the length. I looked at gatka videos where they use Khanda and the fencer kept his left hand on the back side of the blade, directing the sword. This one is , IMHO, in Sowth Indian style (pierced guard) and the entire style of the guard is of a transition between Old Indian and basket styles. I would guess 17-18th century. The blade... Well, it depens if one wants to call it a Patissa or a Sossun Pata (because of the downward curvature). I would not be surprised if it was wootz. My 5 cents worth....

21st May 2006, 12:45 AM	#8
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Ohhh, very interesting! I don't think it is 17th century as the scabbard looks fairly modern, but then again it may just be a recent addition. The hilt certainly looks and feels very old, but the blade itself does not. Along the blade there is a fuller, which I am assuming has almost dissipeared due to a strong polish over the years. In regards to the blade having re-inforcing plates, this may had been as if you can see on the pictures just above the guard there is a hole in the blade. Perhaps this was used for attaching these plates? On monday if the weather is good, I plan to give the blade an acid wash to see if it is indeed wootz steel. Anyways many thanks to Rick and Ariel, you have been of great help and I will post pictures of my acid wash results. Regards, Will

21st May 2006, 12:50 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Gently with the acid Will ....

21st May 2006, 01:56 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oops, I missed the hole! What it means, beyond doubt, is that the blade/handle marriage is not their first one. This blade was formerly used for a sword with a real baskethill handle and was riveted. This is a replacement; either old (Indians saved handles and used replacement blades) or new. If the former, it is OK, if the latter... I have seen several Indian swords, usually with desirable Khanda, Sossun Pata or Tegha blades (all recently made) inserted into old "Khanda" handles and sold for a fortune. This one does not look new, but just in case, look carefully if there are signs of any new sharpening, whether the steel is soft etc. Sorry for sounding paranoid, but I gor burned myself...

21st May 2006, 01:52 PM	#11
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	To determine if the blade is a new one mounted with an older hilt, or, an old blade that has been buffed up bright, I would view the blade closely as you can beneath the langets. If someone did indeed buff up an older blade, there should be patina or corrosion beneath the langet that you simply cannot reach when buffing. If this area is consistent with the balance of the blade then the buffing was done uniformly before mounting to the hilt. If it has corrosion or dark patina, then the buffing was performed while blade is attached to hilt and may be suggestive the two have been together for awhile. If the blade turns out to be wootz, that is another good sign that the blade is older.

21st May 2006, 04:18 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Nice pattisa you got – congratulations. Hilts were reused as well as blades, and when the blades were worn out, they were used to make new blades out of. Some of the pattisa/khanda blades were very flexible, and as they wanted to have a flexible, but not too heavy, but still a stiff blade, they reinforced them. It is however not all the blades which were reinforced. I think reinforcement would need to be fastened at least in two places, so if there is only one hole, close to the hilt, on your sword, I doubt that it was for reinforcement. Is the mark close to the tip the only on the blade? Like Rick says, be careful when etching, especially if you have not tried it before, then a search on the forum for etching might be a good idea.

21st May 2006, 07:40 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have an old Tulwar with the European blade and it has a hole in the middle of the blade (just like this one) and it is surrounded by a very faint imprint of an old reinforcing part. Obviously, it used to be riveted to another handle (Basket hilt-type). The cementing is very old, and the patination is uniform along the entire blade. No doubt the two parts lived together in harmony for a very, very long time. The practice of remounting blades was indeed very widespread and the "hole" should in no way serve as the final evidence of forgery. However, in this day and age one cannot be too paranoid....

21st May 2006, 08:07 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I was looking at a very nice Indian talwar with a wootz blade before I bought the Kaskara, There is something about the combination of good cloth scabbard and newish blade and an old not original handle that puts me off the money asked for some of these things which could just be paranoia. There is no reason why this is not a weapon put together in the late 19th century for display purposes, as the use of such weapons became more anachronistic. The Indian Army was I believe in some ways better equipped than the regular British army certainly the Indian Army pattern sabres seem a lot better than those of the home army.

21st May 2006, 09:30 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Ariel, that you have an old tulwar with faint spurs of reinforcement does not proof anything, when it comes to this sword – tulwars did not, normally as far as I know have reinforcements. Tim, the scabbards is so far of ‘no’ interest, and your postulation 'that there is no reason why this is not a weapon put together in the late 19th century for display purposes, as the use of such weapons became more anachronistic', is only a postulate.

21st May 2006, 10:24 PM	#17
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Hi guys, Okay firstly in my opinion I believe that this is indeed an old blade, but has been recently buffed and sharpened. It is quite obvious that the blade has been sharpened and buffed while the blade was still attached to the hilt. This is because you can see where the polish stops just above the guard, and also the sharpening of the blade is very different when you get down to the guard where the style is different. Also at the bottom of the blade the metal has a dark patina. Secondly the fuller is very shallow and dissipears in some areas, making me belive that the blade was overpolished even more. Adding to this, I can see the two cresent design at least six times on the blade, although one some it is very faint as too much metal has been removed. If you want I can put up some pictures of this. In answer to a question, the cresent designs are all up near the top of the blade. In the first picture you can see it if you look carefully. Anyways tomorrow if the weather is good I will give the blade a light acid wash, though there is no need to worry as I have done this before. Thanks for all the info so far, keep them posts coming in ! Regards, will

22nd May 2006, 11:48 AM	#18
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Ladies and Gents, we have Wootz steel !!! I have been etching the sword this morning using a solution of warm vinigar and soap, and in the steel there is a nice grain showing up. I have checked around on reference sites and this does look like wootz steel so far. Ill post some pictures up later on once I have have finished the etch and cleaned up the blade. Regards, Will

22nd May 2006, 01:09 PM	#19
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Okay here we go, Firstly a close up of the blade showing wootz steel. The other pictures are of the many many cresent designs all over the blade.

22nd May 2006, 02:20 PM	#20
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Ariel, your tulwar sounds like a bit of a puzzle, but it is true, like you write, that not all the swords we see, where the blades and hilts don’t seem to fit, were brought together recently, many of them were brought together a long time ago. Will, congratulations with the etching, it looks fine to me. Is the pattern dark or light? It is hard to see on the picture.

25th May 2006, 05:29 PM	#21
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Hello again! Okay I gave the sword another light wash this morning and here are the results. Now that we know that the blade is made from wootz steel, is there anything else you can tell me about the possible history of this blade, as I would love to know! Cheers!

25th May 2006, 09:07 PM	#22
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I like the results of your etching process. Can you give step-by-step recipe?

26th May 2006, 11:15 AM	#23
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Sure, Firstly I used a little bowl with a lid to contain the hot solution. The solution itself was a mixture of vinegar, lemon juice and a spot of dishwasher soap. I don't normally use lemon juice but I was running very low on vinegar. The dishwasher soap is there to break up the surface tension in the solution so you really need a very small amount so that you do not reduce the strength of the solution. After you have made the mixture heat it up, I use the microwave as it only takes a few seconds. Make sure that the blade itself is hot, I use either the flame hob or place the blade on top of a metal radiator. One both are hot, then using whatever you want, cover the blade in the solution. You will have to keep heating up the solution and re-applying as having a hot solution is very important to the success of the etch. Once you have finished neutralise the acid. I use baking powder. Polish the blade using a non-abrasive polish. Thats about it really, the longer you do it for the more prominant it will become, but if you etch for too long the pattern will become muddy. ...looks like I went on for a bit there... well thats something for you beginners out there. Will