Where is this sheat from?

Gustav · 15th May 2010, 06:30 PM

This sheath question is, of course, nothing new (something really worth to read: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=coteng+sheath). As every question, it is a possibility to show opinions, wishes and standfastness in holding and proclaiming opinions.

"The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin."

Dear Moshah,

however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath?

What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now.

Sajen · 15th May 2010, 07:59 PM

Hello Gustav,

look this both threads respective sheaths from Cirebon:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cirebon

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cirebon

Regards,

Detlef

Moshah · 15th May 2010, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Dear Moshah,

however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath?

What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now.

Hi Gustav,

I'm sorry I could not enlighten u about Cirebonese sheath. I never had one, nor I have had one in my hand before. I put forth the differences simply by comparing the sample pictures that Sajen has uploaded, and few others I can see from the links.

From my untrained eyes, you can see that all the cirebonese crosspieces given as example here (either in links given or Sajen's pix), there are something identical at each of the left side of the crosspieces. Sorry I don't know the name of this features, but the feature that I am referring to looks like a cheek line at the left side of the cirebonese crosspiece, where both my coteng and Sajen's new sheath do not possess.

About the features (caping, shoulder & third eye of Shiva), I hope Sajen can scan & upload the Spirit of Wood pg 169, so that we all can see what I mean here.

Also I attach this picture taken from Artzi's sold item page, a coteng, which bear some similarities to Sajen's new sheath. Not 100% identical, right? I would say that the overall shape of Sajen's new sheath looks like it have Cirebonese influences while the features are of Coteng's.

I would also love to learn more about Cirebonese sheath, as much as I would love to own one!

Gustav · 15th May 2010, 09:06 PM

Moshah,

thank you very much for the explanation.

Do you call "cheek line" feature visible also here? : http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html

Moshah · 15th May 2010, 09:12 PM

Hi Gustav,

Yes it was in that picture.

Sorry "cheek line" is not a proper term for it. I dunno what u called it, but what i meant is the line from upper crosspiece to lower, where the line is in between a "/" and a "k" in the watermark "http://keris.fotopic.net"

Gustav · 15th May 2010, 09:20 PM

Then this feature would appear also on a Cirebon wrongko?

Moshah · 15th May 2010, 09:26 PM

What I meant is that this feature appears on cirebonese wronko, even it is on the cirebonese sample pix that Sajen had posted.

But both the coteng keris pix samples that I have uploaded, plus Sajen's new sheath, do not possess this feature.

Gustav · 15th May 2010, 09:44 PM

Ok, I was getting disoriented by your Oriental Arms picture, where the left side is the right side. I ment the ridge at the bottom of wrongko on other side.

Sajen · 16th May 2010, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

Hi Gustav,

Yes it was in that picture.

Sorry "cheek line" is not a proper term for it. I dunno what u called it, but what i meant is the line from upper crosspiece to lower, where the line is in between a "/" and a "k" in the watermark "http://keris.fotopic.net"

It's called "lata" so far I know.

Sajen · 16th May 2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

About the features (caping, shoulder & third eye of Shiva), I hope Sajen can scan & upload the Spirit of Wood pg 169, so that we all can see what I mean here.

I have taken a picture and I think that it is clear enough.

Moshah · 17th May 2010, 02:41 AM

Sorry for the pix orientation, pak Ganja. I just uploaded it straight from Artzi's.

It would not do us any harm if the wronko is Cirebonese or Coteng's. Pak Ganja has given good points in determining Cirebonese sheath. That is his area of expertise.

Coteng has never been an area of my expertise, nor that I am an expert. Also my lack of Cirebonese example and knowledge would also holds me no valid ground to express my point.

Aesthetic asides, I only see as what I stand from the points that I mentioned (bahu, caping, shiva 3rd eye). From Sajen's scanned pix of Spirit of Woods, it is easy to see why I think that way.

Of course I would not know about the bangunan, development of the wronko etc. If pak Ganja or any expert can elaborate on that, that would be a feast for me, as I can learn some more.

Gustav · 17th May 2010, 03:08 PM

Dear Moshah,

the features similar to Bahu, Caping and Mata Ketiga Siva are found on other keris sheath then coteng's.
Bahu (if it means the small ridge at the bottom og gonjo and not simply Pidakan) is visible on the Cirebonese (?) sheath from Hidayat's page (oncemore http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html), Caping is similar to a common feature called Ri Cangkring, features related to Mata Ketiga Siva are Wideng on Javanese and Mata Ideng & Alis Pandji on Balinese sheaths.
The point is indeed, Sajen's sheath has no Loto or Pejetan and Wideng are very extensive.

The pictures are a keris from Banten (?) and Cirebon (?).

Sajen · 31st May 2010, 06:34 PM

Today I received the keris and this sheath is a real mystery for me. It's carved from a very lightweight wood and not very fine executed but definitively with a good age. There are unfortunately two old repairs. The carvings are not symmetric. The width down from the Tampingan are 30 mm (1,18 inch).
Here some first pictures:

DAHenkel · 1st June 2010, 12:04 AM

That sheath is definitely 100% Pattani so it looks like you have gotten yourself a composite piece with a (likely) Madura blade and hilt.

This thread though raises the very relevant connection between the North Coast of Java and the origins of the keris in the Northeast Peninsula. There is definitely a strong connection - all you have to do is scan through Karsten Jensen's book. The familial relationship is sometimes striking!

Now Detlef, all you gotta do is keep your eyes peeled for an early Pattani blade and a bangsa agung or earlier style coteng hilt.

max · 5th June 2010, 11:05 AM

The same wrangka,

Sorry I am new to the forum and had some difficulties with the pictures. I had to adjust them so the fit the forum size. I have this wrangka for a long time. I bought the keris in the past from an englisch seller. As you can see, the tips are broken off. Nice from this forum now I have a pretty good idea how it schould look like with the tipp !!!

15th May 2010, 06:30 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,202	This sheath question is, of course, nothing new (something really worth to read: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=coteng+sheath). As every question, it is a possibility to show opinions, wishes and standfastness in holding and proclaiming opinions. "The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin." Dear Moshah, however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath? What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now. Last edited by Gustav; 15th May 2010 at 07:25 PM.

15th May 2010, 09:44 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,202	Ok, I was getting disoriented by your Oriental Arms picture, where the left side is the right side. I ment the ridge at the bottom of wrongko on other side. Last edited by Gustav; 15th May 2010 at 10:29 PM.

17th May 2010, 03:08 PM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,202	Dear Moshah, the features similar to Bahu, Caping and Mata Ketiga Siva are found on other keris sheath then coteng's. Bahu (if it means the small ridge at the bottom og gonjo and not simply Pidakan) is visible on the Cirebonese (?) sheath from Hidayat's page (oncemore http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html), Caping is similar to a common feature called Ri Cangkring, features related to Mata Ketiga Siva are Wideng on Javanese and Mata Ideng & Alis Pandji on Balinese sheaths. The point is indeed, Sajen's sheath has no Loto or Pejetan and Wideng are very extensive. The pictures are a keris from Banten (?) and Cirebon (?). Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 18th May 2010 at 12:16 AM.

31st May 2010, 06:34 PM	#13
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,570	Today I received the keris and this sheath is a real mystery for me. It's carved from a very lightweight wood and not very fine executed but definitively with a good age. There are unfortunately two old repairs. The carvings are not symmetric. The width down from the Tampingan are 30 mm (1,18 inch). Here some first pictures: Attached Images

5th June 2010, 11:05 AM	#15
max Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 12	sheath The same wrangka, Sorry I am new to the forum and had some difficulties with the pictures. I had to adjust them so the fit the forum size. I have this wrangka for a long time. I bought the keris in the past from an englisch seller. As you can see, the tips are broken off. Nice from this forum now I have a pretty good idea how it schould look like with the tipp !!! Attached Images Last edited by max; 6th June 2010 at 02:26 AM.

15th May 2010, 07:59 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,570	Hello Gustav, look this both threads respective sheaths from Cirebon: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cirebon http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cirebon Regards, Detlef

15th May 2010, 09:06 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,202	Moshah, thank you very much for the explanation. Do you call "cheek line" feature visible also here? : http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html

15th May 2010, 09:12 PM	#5
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Hi Gustav, Yes it was in that picture. Sorry "cheek line" is not a proper term for it. I dunno what u called it, but what i meant is the line from upper crosspiece to lower, where the line is in between a "/" and a "k" in the watermark "http://keris.fotopic.net"

15th May 2010, 09:20 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,202	Then this feature would appear also on a Cirebon wrongko?

15th May 2010, 09:26 PM	#7
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	What I meant is that this feature appears on cirebonese wronko, even it is on the cirebonese sample pix that Sajen had posted. But both the coteng keris pix samples that I have uploaded, plus Sajen's new sheath, do not possess this feature.

17th May 2010, 02:41 AM	#11
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Sorry for the pix orientation, pak Ganja. I just uploaded it straight from Artzi's. It would not do us any harm if the wronko is Cirebonese or Coteng's. Pak Ganja has given good points in determining Cirebonese sheath. That is his area of expertise. Coteng has never been an area of my expertise, nor that I am an expert. Also my lack of Cirebonese example and knowledge would also holds me no valid ground to express my point. Aesthetic asides, I only see as what I stand from the points that I mentioned (bahu, caping, shiva 3rd eye). From Sajen's scanned pix of Spirit of Woods, it is easy to see why I think that way. Of course I would not know about the bangunan, development of the wronko etc. If pak Ganja or any expert can elaborate on that, that would be a feast for me, as I can learn some more.

1st June 2010, 12:04 AM	#14
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	That sheath is definitely 100% Pattani so it looks like you have gotten yourself a composite piece with a (likely) Madura blade and hilt. This thread though raises the very relevant connection between the North Coast of Java and the origins of the keris in the Northeast Peninsula. There is definitely a strong connection - all you have to do is scan through Karsten Jensen's book. The familial relationship is sometimes striking! Now Detlef, all you gotta do is keep your eyes peeled for an early Pattani blade and a bangsa agung or earlier style coteng hilt.