2 Victorian Lances

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2012, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

A quick search turned up the following for blue and white;

3rd Cavalry
Blue koorta with scarlet facings
Dark Blue turban
Red sash
Yellow trousers
Blue over white lance pennon

This dates from british India 1857 records so not likely for mine....

Just saw this, excellent work there Gav!!! As far as Ive known British units even native cavalry used red and white pennons, except 3rd Bengal Lancers which used blue and yellow in later years of 19th century.

Any pics of your lances?

All the best,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 21st January 2012, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just saw this, excellent work there Gav!!! As far as Ive known British units even native cavalry used red and white pennons, except 3rd Bengal Lancers which used blue and yellow in later years of 19th century.

Any pics of your lances?

All the best,
Jim

Thanks Jim. Unfortunately they are in storage until the end of Feb at latest but I'll bring them to the table then.

Gav

katana · 21st January 2012, 02:44 PM

Thank you for all the replies and the congrats Rick

Gav

, I would also like to see pictures of your lances when they are 'available'

I never knew that there were blue/white pennants in the British Army....I thought all were red and white

Jim

,
thank you for the back ground ...... the vision of you in 'jousting mode' on a freeway is now stuck in my head ......I do hope you were sporting your pith helmet to complete the 'ensemble' ......

as some of the pictures show below......

These lances were used in many conflicts in Africa ....as well as India. The Madhist uprising also saw the Lancers put to use. As far as I can tell the Lancers at the tail end of the 19th C were rarely used in European conflicts perhaps, due to the effectiveness of long range firearms....but in colonial engagements they continued to flourish.

Kind Regards David

A few pics gleamed from the web......

Iain · 21st January 2012, 02:50 PM

Really neat images David, I wasn't familiar with the use of the lancers in the colonies. Of course congratulations are in order for the lances as well! Really fine looking pieces and amazing to get them intact with the straps.

Fascinating subject, please keep posting more info guys.

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2012, 03:33 PM

Great pics David! and I actually did have a pith helmet but wasnt wearing it that day in the vette

I recall my wife once retorting as I wanted to watch 'Gunga Din' for the zillionth time, "OK, but this time dont wear the helmet, you're scaring the cats!"

I think one of the biggest confusions in lances are the ever present 'pig sticking' or 'tent pegging' lances which were heavily in use during the Raj.
These are typically shorter and have a heavy lead weight as the shoe. The head is different as well. These examples seem far more common and often misperceived as they are very close to the combat lances in appearance, especially those without the weighted shoe. I recall getting a pair of these back then and having no idea what the heck was up with the huge lead ball at the base.

While the lance was used in numerous colonial situations, it seems it was frowned upon in many cases not only from the standpoint of the advent of repeating firearms, but that it was cumbersome and somewhat dangerous in close quarters combat and melee. The longest standing use seems to have been with the native cavalry regiments from India, the fabled 'Bengal Lancers', who continued use well through the 1930s. I have mentioned before my great visit with Brigadier Francis Ingall (author of "Last of the Bengal Lancers") before his passing in 1992, and his great tales of one of the last cavalry charges on the plains in Khyber Agency in the 1930s.

In research on the lance many years ago I learned that at least one cavalry regiment in Pennsylvania was outfitted as a lancer regiment (I think it was Rush's lancers) in the Civil War period. I cannot recall finding these ever being used in combat, and mostly it sounds like a pretty unfortunate outcome with this experimental situation. As poorly trained as cavalry was with the sword, I can imagine how the lance must have fared. I just thought it an interesting note as we review some lance history.

I had a couple of books written by a Polish lancer in WWI, and in WWI the German uhlans used a fully metal lance of over 10 feet long. The Polish lancers in Napoleons service were quite the inspiration for lancer units in Europe. I recall reading these were much feared and despised as death from these lance wounds was particularly gruesome, and when captured the lancers were seldom given quarter and killed on the spot.

Gav, thanks very much for more on your lances, and I still hope to find something somewhere on the color pairing on lance pennons. Trying to recall work I did on this topic (around three decades ago

it seems there were of course colors to various countries, I think Germany was black & white, and so on. The blue and yellow for 3rd Bengal Lancers was it seems the single variationin among British cavalry.
In South Africa there were however native regimental contingents much as in India such as Natal Mounted Rifles if I recall correctly, but unsure whether any might have been outfitted as lancers. Perhaps some look into material on the two Boer wars might reveal units which might have that prospective.

Thanks very much guys for sharing these, and the boost down memory lane in my case!

All the best,
Jim

katana · 21st January 2012, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great pics David! and I actually did have a pith helmet but wasnt wearing it that day in the vette

I recall my wife once retorting as I wanted to watch 'Gunga Din' for the zillionth time, "OK, but this time dont wear the helmet, you're scaring the cats!"

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,
yes I remembered you had one

....also, wasn't there something about a tulwar, a ceiling fan and a lot of Drambuie

All the best
David

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2012, 06:22 PM

JUDL!!!
Thanks David, you remembered my Drambuie story

Outstanding detail on the unit participations of these regiments, and really gives great perspective on the many places these types of lances might have seen action. Careful, or you will end up a crazed, obsessive researcher rolling around in a Winnebago like me

I am writing now amid sheaves of scribbled notes and books in the bookmobile.

Im not sure of the provenance on these lances of yours from Stefan (Ashoka) but if they are indeed from Africa, as the group from Gav is, perhaps I may have some interesting findings.
The unusual color pennon on one of Gavs lances prompted me to loom further into native regiments which might have equipped with lances, and found that there were Australian regiments of cavalry there during Boer Wars as well. Actually, these ANZAC units are probably some of the most colorful representations of cavalry during these times.

In Australia in 1885 a volunteer cavalry regiment which ultimately became the New South Wales Lancers was formed, originally known as the Hunter River cavalry regiment. From some of the data on the NSW lancers online, it appears that they were appointed officially as lancers in 1894. In 1897 some squadrons were sent to participate in Queen Victorias jubilee event.
They were posted as well to South Africa, and are noted to have fought with lances in numerous engagements 1899-1902 in the 2nd Boer War.

While this probably does not address the variant colored pennon in Gavs group, as I believe Australian units also had the British red and white, it does seem to show admittedly tenuous connection to the dates you note from your lances.

All the best,
Jim

katana · 21st January 2012, 04:41 PM

Some of the Lancer 'actions' in Africa late 19thC....

The 17th....

".........In India, the 17th became the 17th Regiment of Lancers. When, in 1876, it gained Prince George, Duke of Cambridge as its Colonel-in-Chief, the regiment adopted the title of the 17th (The Duke of Cambridge's Own) Lancers.

The 17th was sent to Natal Colony for the Zulu War. On 4 July 1879, the 17th fought at the Battle of Ulundi under Sir Drury Curzon Drury-Lowe. The 17th was posted inside a large British infantry square during the attack by the Zulu Army, which had surrounded the British. When the attack appeared to be wavering, the 17th Lancers were ordered to advance. Their charge routed the warriors with heavy loss. The battle proved to be decisive. The 17th returned to India the same year, remaining there until about 1890 when they returned home........"

The 5th Royal Irish...

"....A small detachment was sent to serve with the Heavy Camel Corps during the Egyptian Campaign, where they suffered some casualties at Abu Klea. It was also here that Private G. H. Austin was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal for bravery under fire.
Also at this time they provided two squadrons of cavalry for the Gordon Relief Force, along with the 20th hussars and 9th Bengal Cavalry. It was here while fighting Osman Dinga that they saw action at Suakin on the Red Sea, Hasheen and Tamai. It was during the actions at Suakin where a full charge with lances routed the opposing Dervishes that the regiment was awarded the battle honour "Suakin 1885". The two squadrons were awarded the Egyptian Medal with clasps "Suakin 1885" and "Toftek"......"

12th (Prince of Wales's Royal ) Lancers (Battle honours)

"... Egypt, Salamanca, Peninsula, Waterloo, Punniar, Sobraon, Chillianwallah, Goojerat, Punjaub, South Africa 1851-53, Sevastopol, Delhi 1857, Lucknow, Central India, Charasiah, Kabul 1878, Kandahar 1880, Afghanistan 1878-80, Modder River, Relief of Kimberley, Paardeberg, South Africa 1899-1902....."

Battle of Omdurman....

".....The British light cavalry regiment, the 21st Lancers, was sent ahead to clear the plain to Omdurman. They had a tough time of it. The 400-strong regiment attacked what they thought were only a few hundred dervishes, but in fact there were 2,500 infantry hidden behind them in a depression. After a fierce clash the Lancers drove them back (resulting in three Victoria Crosses being awarded)....."

21st January 2012, 02:44 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you for all the replies and the congrats Rick Gav , I would also like to see pictures of your lances when they are 'available' I never knew that there were blue/white pennants in the British Army....I thought all were red and white Jim , thank you for the back ground ...... the vision of you in 'jousting mode' on a freeway is now stuck in my head ......I do hope you were sporting your pith helmet to complete the 'ensemble' ...... as some of the pictures show below...... These lances were used in many conflicts in Africa ....as well as India. The Madhist uprising also saw the Lancers put to use. As far as I can tell the Lancers at the tail end of the 19th C were rarely used in European conflicts perhaps, due to the effectiveness of long range firearms....but in colonial engagements they continued to flourish. Kind Regards David A few pics gleamed from the web...... Attached Images

21st January 2012, 02:50 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,682	Really neat images David, I wasn't familiar with the use of the lancers in the colonies. Of course congratulations are in order for the lances as well! Really fine looking pieces and amazing to get them intact with the straps. Fascinating subject, please keep posting more info guys.

21st January 2012, 03:33 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Great pics David! and I actually did have a pith helmet but wasnt wearing it that day in the vette I recall my wife once retorting as I wanted to watch 'Gunga Din' for the zillionth time, "OK, but this time dont wear the helmet, you're scaring the cats!" I think one of the biggest confusions in lances are the ever present 'pig sticking' or 'tent pegging' lances which were heavily in use during the Raj. These are typically shorter and have a heavy lead weight as the shoe. The head is different as well. These examples seem far more common and often misperceived as they are very close to the combat lances in appearance, especially those without the weighted shoe. I recall getting a pair of these back then and having no idea what the heck was up with the huge lead ball at the base. While the lance was used in numerous colonial situations, it seems it was frowned upon in many cases not only from the standpoint of the advent of repeating firearms, but that it was cumbersome and somewhat dangerous in close quarters combat and melee. The longest standing use seems to have been with the native cavalry regiments from India, the fabled 'Bengal Lancers', who continued use well through the 1930s. I have mentioned before my great visit with Brigadier Francis Ingall (author of "Last of the Bengal Lancers") before his passing in 1992, and his great tales of one of the last cavalry charges on the plains in Khyber Agency in the 1930s. In research on the lance many years ago I learned that at least one cavalry regiment in Pennsylvania was outfitted as a lancer regiment (I think it was Rush's lancers) in the Civil War period. I cannot recall finding these ever being used in combat, and mostly it sounds like a pretty unfortunate outcome with this experimental situation. As poorly trained as cavalry was with the sword, I can imagine how the lance must have fared. I just thought it an interesting note as we review some lance history. I had a couple of books written by a Polish lancer in WWI, and in WWI the German uhlans used a fully metal lance of over 10 feet long. The Polish lancers in Napoleons service were quite the inspiration for lancer units in Europe. I recall reading these were much feared and despised as death from these lance wounds was particularly gruesome, and when captured the lancers were seldom given quarter and killed on the spot. Gav, thanks very much for more on your lances, and I still hope to find something somewhere on the color pairing on lance pennons. Trying to recall work I did on this topic (around three decades ago it seems there were of course colors to various countries, I think Germany was black & white, and so on. The blue and yellow for 3rd Bengal Lancers was it seems the single variationin among British cavalry. In South Africa there were however native regimental contingents much as in India such as Natal Mounted Rifles if I recall correctly, but unsure whether any might have been outfitted as lancers. Perhaps some look into material on the two Boer wars might reveal units which might have that prospective. Thanks very much guys for sharing these, and the boost down memory lane in my case! All the best, Jim

21st January 2012, 06:22 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	JUDL!!! Thanks David, you remembered my Drambuie story Outstanding detail on the unit participations of these regiments, and really gives great perspective on the many places these types of lances might have seen action. Careful, or you will end up a crazed, obsessive researcher rolling around in a Winnebago like me I am writing now amid sheaves of scribbled notes and books in the bookmobile. Im not sure of the provenance on these lances of yours from Stefan (Ashoka) but if they are indeed from Africa, as the group from Gav is, perhaps I may have some interesting findings. The unusual color pennon on one of Gavs lances prompted me to loom further into native regiments which might have equipped with lances, and found that there were Australian regiments of cavalry there during Boer Wars as well. Actually, these ANZAC units are probably some of the most colorful representations of cavalry during these times. In Australia in 1885 a volunteer cavalry regiment which ultimately became the New South Wales Lancers was formed, originally known as the Hunter River cavalry regiment. From some of the data on the NSW lancers online, it appears that they were appointed officially as lancers in 1894. In 1897 some squadrons were sent to participate in Queen Victorias jubilee event. They were posted as well to South Africa, and are noted to have fought with lances in numerous engagements 1899-1902 in the 2nd Boer War. While this probably does not address the variant colored pennon in Gavs group, as I believe Australian units also had the British red and white, it does seem to show admittedly tenuous connection to the dates you note from your lances. All the best, Jim

21st January 2012, 04:41 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Some of the Lancer 'actions' in Africa late 19thC.... The 17th.... ".........In India, the 17th became the 17th Regiment of Lancers. When, in 1876, it gained Prince George, Duke of Cambridge as its Colonel-in-Chief, the regiment adopted the title of the 17th (The Duke of Cambridge's Own) Lancers. The 17th was sent to Natal Colony for the Zulu War. On 4 July 1879, the 17th fought at the Battle of Ulundi under Sir Drury Curzon Drury-Lowe. The 17th was posted inside a large British infantry square during the attack by the Zulu Army, which had surrounded the British. When the attack appeared to be wavering, the 17th Lancers were ordered to advance. Their charge routed the warriors with heavy loss. The battle proved to be decisive. The 17th returned to India the same year, remaining there until about 1890 when they returned home........" The 5th Royal Irish... "....A small detachment was sent to serve with the Heavy Camel Corps during the Egyptian Campaign, where they suffered some casualties at Abu Klea. It was also here that Private G. H. Austin was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal for bravery under fire. Also at this time they provided two squadrons of cavalry for the Gordon Relief Force, along with the 20th hussars and 9th Bengal Cavalry. It was here while fighting Osman Dinga that they saw action at Suakin on the Red Sea, Hasheen and Tamai. It was during the actions at Suakin where a full charge with lances routed the opposing Dervishes that the regiment was awarded the battle honour "Suakin 1885". The two squadrons were awarded the Egyptian Medal with clasps "Suakin 1885" and "Toftek"......" 12th (Prince of Wales's Royal ) Lancers (Battle honours) "... Egypt, Salamanca, Peninsula, Waterloo, Punniar, Sobraon, Chillianwallah, Goojerat, Punjaub, South Africa 1851-53, Sevastopol, Delhi 1857, Lucknow, Central India, Charasiah, Kabul 1878, Kandahar 1880, Afghanistan 1878-80, Modder River, Relief of Kimberley, Paardeberg, South Africa 1899-1902....." Battle of Omdurman.... ".....The British light cavalry regiment, the 21st Lancers, was sent ahead to clear the plain to Omdurman. They had a tough time of it. The 400-strong regiment attacked what they thought were only a few hundred dervishes, but in fact there were 2,500 infantry hidden behind them in a depression. After a fierce clash the Lancers drove them back (resulting in three Victoria Crosses being awarded)....."