Small krises from Sumatra

Jean · 17th September 2013, 05:48 PM

Dear forumites,
I own a number of small krisses from Sumatra (blade lenght less than about 10 inches or 25 cm excluding the peksi). All of them look original with one possible exception, and I would like to know for whom these pieces were made (women or children?). Your input will be welcome.
Their descripion is as follows from top to bottom of the pictures:
. Kris from Centre Sumatra?, blade lenght 19.5 cm
. Kris Minangkabau, blade lenght 21 cm
. Kris bahari, blade lenght 25 cm (possibly shortened)
. Kris Bugis East Sumatra, blade lenght 23 cm
. Kris from South Sumatra, blade lenght 22 cm
. Kris from South Sumatra?, blade lenght 24.5 cm
. Kris from East Sumatra?, blade lenght 24 cm
Thanks in advance and regards

Jean · 17th September 2013, 05:51 PM

Additional pics
Regards

David · 17th September 2013, 08:22 PM

A nice collection of patrems. I especially like the first two. For some reason i really like this type of keris.
Forgive my ignorance here, but i have found so little written on these little blades. Is there a tradition in place of actually giving small keris to young children. Given one of it's traits as being a symbol of manhood that would seem odd to me. I would think it more likely that a boy would not receive a keris until he becomes a man, at which point it would seem an insult to present him with a purposefully smaller blade. Of course that goes right out the window with the idea of a keris for a woman, but at least these are adult women. It has been suggested to me in the past the the patrem is reserved for woman of a certain higher status (perhaps why we don't see a ton of them). Since i am interested in them and own more than a few myself i would be really interested in what anyone might have to add about the cultural application of the patrem.

A. G. Maisey · 17th September 2013, 11:32 PM

My understanding of the keris as the possession of a woman is that in times past they were given to women of high rank so that the woman could protect herself and her honour if the palace were to be overrun by attackers.

If she was unable to prevent violation, she had the option of suicide.

Don't forget that in old Javanese thought a woman had no existence if her husband died. This thought continued in Bali up until recent times.

In fact, with many women who retain traditional modes of thought in Jawa even today, once her husband has died, she herself no longer has a life.

There are very solid societal reasons for this pattern of thought.

I cannot answer your question Jean, but possibly we could begin by trying to determine if it was established practice for women in Sumatran ruling hierarchies to carry keris.

I've had more than a few of these little Sumatran keris myself, and my feeling about them was that they were invariably recent keris, ie, within the last 100-150 years or so, and represented keris that had been scaled down to permit convenient or concealed carry. Even though small, any of these keris that I have had were perfectly able to be used by a man. This is an uninformed opinion, I have no special knowledge upon which to base this opinion.

Jean · 18th September 2013, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I cannot answer your question Jean, but possibly we could begin by trying to determine if it was established practice for women in Sumatran ruling hierarchies to carry keris.

Thank you Alan, and the practice for Sumatran women to carry or at least own a kris has been mentioned in the matriarcal Minangkabau society (without formal evidence to my best knowledge), but not elsewhere?
The only evidence of women carrying a kris during celebrations which I know is within the Toraja ethnic group in Sulawesi. I also saw pictures of women carrying a wedung during kraton ceremonies in Central Java.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 18th September 2013, 01:19 PM

We happen to have a very good family friend who is from a noble Toraja family. She is married to an Australian, and currently living in Bali. She has her family's kerises. A couple of years ago I had a long conversation with her about the practice of allowing women in her society to be custodians of family keris. What she told me was that in her society keris are no longer thought of as being particularly special, yes, they can be a part of the heirlooms of a family, but whoever is prepared to take care of those heirlooms, man or woman, may do so.

Going back maybe 30 years or so I noted a similar practice amongst Chinese families in Solo.

There are very few universal values, if any, when we examine the cultural position of the keris across various cultural groups. This is perhaps the major reason why I have progressively narrowed my focus to only those societies where there are still remnants of the original values associated with the keris. Many of these values did not transfer to those societies that received the keris from Jawa in the first instance, so it not at all to be expected to find those values in those societies now.

The wedung is a symbolic object, and female retainers of the appropriate rank in the Karaton Surakarta still carry one when formally dressed. The wedung carried by these women is invariably very much smaller than the male version.

Jean, we must make a distinction between "women" and women who are a part of a palace heirarchy, or of noble descent. I know I continually hammer this point ad nauseam, but we do not have even the vaguest possibility of understanding the keris and those cultural practices associated with it unless we first understand the culture. For example, here we are talking about "Sumatera". What does that mean? Which particular cultural or societal group are we talking about in Sumatera?

Personally, I know next to nothing about Sumatera, but if I wished to understand these little keris I would begin by examining the various cultural groups that can be found in Sumatera, one by one, and in detail. That is the place to start, we do not begin with the product of the culture, we begin with its roots and then work our way through to the product. Yes, slow, and often pretty boring, but it really is the only reliable way to gain understanding.

When I look at these pretty little keris that you have shown, I cannot help but feel that I am looking at something that has male essence. I would not expect such exuberance in a female keris. I really do feel that I'm looking at a scaled down version of a keris intended for wear with modern clothing --- something that could be tucked in under a jacket, or even worn openly without causing too much inconvenience. To my eyes these little keris just don't look like lady-gear.

David · 18th September 2013, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When I look at these pretty little keris that you have shown, I cannot help but feel that I am looking at something that has male essence. I would not expect such exuberance in a female keris.

I think i do understand what you mean here Alan. I have a number of patrem in my collection and have noticed that they do tend towards a less exuberant presence then most of these.
Do you have any comment on the notion that small keris may have been produced for young boys? This still seems unlikely to me given the nature of keris, but no one has yet to comment on this idea and this is not the first place i have heard such a thing suggested.

Gustav · 18th September 2013, 05:55 PM

I suppose, the Minang "matriarchs" wearing a keris is a legend and a quite new one. If you have the book "Walk in splendor", which is the most comprehensive book regarding traditional Minang costumes and possibly the Minang culture, you will find no women costumes with keris. I also never have seen an old picture of a Minang women wearing a keris.

I think, the small keris on Sumatra are just like the keris selit on Peninsula - dress kerisses.

Jean · 18th September 2013, 07:46 PM

Thank you Gustav, can you show us some specimens of these Malaysian keris selit for comparison?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 18th September 2013, 11:31 PM

David, I am not able to make a definitive statement on the "young boys" idea.

I've heard it often enough, and I guess that if a keris were to be given a boy after his circumcision, as sometimes happens, a scaled down one might be appropriate. When a keris is made specifically for a person it is made to reflect that person's age, size, societal position. A keris made specifically for a boy just entering society would probably be made smaller than a normal size keris. Similarly, a keris made for a man of small stature could also be expected to be a bit smaller than usual.

I do think that it is a valid idea that boys might have sometimes had smaller keris made specifically for them, most especially where the boy concerned was in a position where he would need to attend formal functions, however I cannot say definitely that this was the case.

David · 18th September 2013, 11:40 PM

Thanks Alan. At what age are boys circumcised in these culture?

A. G. Maisey · 19th September 2013, 01:03 AM

For Javanese boys living in traditional families it is about 11 or 12 years of age.

Girls used to be "circumcised" too, but as far as I know this is now no longer generally practiced. It was not unusual in traditional Javanese families through into the early 1960's, but I think it has generally disappeared as a usual practice now. In any case, these female "circumcisions", or more properly , removal of the clitoris, were often not really performed. A small sliver of bambu shoot (bung) was placed in the appropriate place and it was this piece of bambu that was produced as evidence that the job had been done.

The Balinese practice of tooth filing is well known, but what is not so well known is that Javanese girls often had their teeth filed at puberty to improve their beauty. I don't think that the boys also had their teeth done. This practice was also carried out through into the 1960's. I doubt that it is done now.

Sajen · 19th September 2013, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

I suppose, the Minang "matriarchs" wearing a keris is a legend and a quite new one. If you have the book "Walk in splendor", which is the most comprehensive book regarding traditional Minang costumes and possibly the Minang culture, you will find no women costumes with keris. I also never have seen an old picture of a Minang women wearing a keris.

I think, the small keris on Sumatra are just like the keris selit on Peninsula - dress kerisses.

Agree complete with Gustav. Here is a old thread about two keris selit from my collection, one is sold, the one with the horn handle is still in my collection.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=selit

Regards,

Detlef

17th September 2013, 05:48 PM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Small krises from Sumatra Dear forumites, I own a number of small krisses from Sumatra (blade lenght less than about 10 inches or 25 cm excluding the peksi). All of them look original with one possible exception, and I would like to know for whom these pieces were made (women or children?). Your input will be welcome. Their descripion is as follows from top to bottom of the pictures: . Kris from Centre Sumatra?, blade lenght 19.5 cm . Kris Minangkabau, blade lenght 21 cm . Kris bahari, blade lenght 25 cm (possibly shortened) . Kris Bugis East Sumatra, blade lenght 23 cm . Kris from South Sumatra, blade lenght 22 cm . Kris from South Sumatra?, blade lenght 24.5 cm . Kris from East Sumatra?, blade lenght 24 cm Thanks in advance and regards Attached Images

17th September 2013, 05:51 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Additional pics Regards Attached Images

17th September 2013, 08:22 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,031	A nice collection of patrems. I especially like the first two. For some reason i really like this type of keris. Forgive my ignorance here, but i have found so little written on these little blades. Is there a tradition in place of actually giving small keris to young children. Given one of it's traits as being a symbol of manhood that would seem odd to me. I would think it more likely that a boy would not receive a keris until he becomes a man, at which point it would seem an insult to present him with a purposefully smaller blade. Of course that goes right out the window with the idea of a keris for a woman, but at least these are adult women. It has been suggested to me in the past the the patrem is reserved for woman of a certain higher status (perhaps why we don't see a ton of them). Since i am interested in them and own more than a few myself i would be really interested in what anyone might have to add about the cultural application of the patrem.

17th September 2013, 11:32 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,708	My understanding of the keris as the possession of a woman is that in times past they were given to women of high rank so that the woman could protect herself and her honour if the palace were to be overrun by attackers. If she was unable to prevent violation, she had the option of suicide. Don't forget that in old Javanese thought a woman had no existence if her husband died. This thought continued in Bali up until recent times. In fact, with many women who retain traditional modes of thought in Jawa even today, once her husband has died, she herself no longer has a life. There are very solid societal reasons for this pattern of thought. I cannot answer your question Jean, but possibly we could begin by trying to determine if it was established practice for women in Sumatran ruling hierarchies to carry keris. I've had more than a few of these little Sumatran keris myself, and my feeling about them was that they were invariably recent keris, ie, within the last 100-150 years or so, and represented keris that had been scaled down to permit convenient or concealed carry. Even though small, any of these keris that I have had were perfectly able to be used by a man. This is an uninformed opinion, I have no special knowledge upon which to base this opinion.

18th September 2013, 01:19 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,708	We happen to have a very good family friend who is from a noble Toraja family. She is married to an Australian, and currently living in Bali. She has her family's kerises. A couple of years ago I had a long conversation with her about the practice of allowing women in her society to be custodians of family keris. What she told me was that in her society keris are no longer thought of as being particularly special, yes, they can be a part of the heirlooms of a family, but whoever is prepared to take care of those heirlooms, man or woman, may do so. Going back maybe 30 years or so I noted a similar practice amongst Chinese families in Solo. There are very few universal values, if any, when we examine the cultural position of the keris across various cultural groups. This is perhaps the major reason why I have progressively narrowed my focus to only those societies where there are still remnants of the original values associated with the keris. Many of these values did not transfer to those societies that received the keris from Jawa in the first instance, so it not at all to be expected to find those values in those societies now. The wedung is a symbolic object, and female retainers of the appropriate rank in the Karaton Surakarta still carry one when formally dressed. The wedung carried by these women is invariably very much smaller than the male version. Jean, we must make a distinction between "women" and women who are a part of a palace heirarchy, or of noble descent. I know I continually hammer this point ad nauseam, but we do not have even the vaguest possibility of understanding the keris and those cultural practices associated with it unless we first understand the culture. For example, here we are talking about "Sumatera". What does that mean? Which particular cultural or societal group are we talking about in Sumatera? Personally, I know next to nothing about Sumatera, but if I wished to understand these little keris I would begin by examining the various cultural groups that can be found in Sumatera, one by one, and in detail. That is the place to start, we do not begin with the product of the culture, we begin with its roots and then work our way through to the product. Yes, slow, and often pretty boring, but it really is the only reliable way to gain understanding. When I look at these pretty little keris that you have shown, I cannot help but feel that I am looking at something that has male essence. I would not expect such exuberance in a female keris. I really do feel that I'm looking at a scaled down version of a keris intended for wear with modern clothing --- something that could be tucked in under a jacket, or even worn openly without causing too much inconvenience. To my eyes these little keris just don't look like lady-gear.

18th September 2013, 05:55 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	I suppose, the Minang "matriarchs" wearing a keris is a legend and a quite new one. If you have the book "Walk in splendor", which is the most comprehensive book regarding traditional Minang costumes and possibly the Minang culture, you will find no women costumes with keris. I also never have seen an old picture of a Minang women wearing a keris. I think, the small keris on Sumatra are just like the keris selit on Peninsula - dress kerisses.

18th September 2013, 07:46 PM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Gustav, can you show us some specimens of these Malaysian keris selit for comparison? Regards

18th September 2013, 11:31 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,708	David, I am not able to make a definitive statement on the "young boys" idea. I've heard it often enough, and I guess that if a keris were to be given a boy after his circumcision, as sometimes happens, a scaled down one might be appropriate. When a keris is made specifically for a person it is made to reflect that person's age, size, societal position. A keris made specifically for a boy just entering society would probably be made smaller than a normal size keris. Similarly, a keris made for a man of small stature could also be expected to be a bit smaller than usual. I do think that it is a valid idea that boys might have sometimes had smaller keris made specifically for them, most especially where the boy concerned was in a position where he would need to attend formal functions, however I cannot say definitely that this was the case.

18th September 2013, 11:40 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,031	Thanks Alan. At what age are boys circumcised in these culture?

19th September 2013, 01:03 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,708	For Javanese boys living in traditional families it is about 11 or 12 years of age. Girls used to be "circumcised" too, but as far as I know this is now no longer generally practiced. It was not unusual in traditional Javanese families through into the early 1960's, but I think it has generally disappeared as a usual practice now. In any case, these female "circumcisions", or more properly , removal of the clitoris, were often not really performed. A small sliver of bambu shoot (bung) was placed in the appropriate place and it was this piece of bambu that was produced as evidence that the job had been done. The Balinese practice of tooth filing is well known, but what is not so well known is that Javanese girls often had their teeth filed at puberty to improve their beauty. I don't think that the boys also had their teeth done. This practice was also carried out through into the 1960's. I doubt that it is done now.