Origin of this Yataghan? (With pictures!)

TVV · 17th July 2019, 05:47 AM

Looking through Elgood's book, in the chapter on yataghans on p. 146, figure 167 shows a yataghan with a similar bolster described by Elgood as originating from Crete or Southern Greece. He does not show that many yataghans of this type, unfortunately - the other one in the same chapter just has a date, no attribution. Lord Byron had a smaller dagger of the same type.

Teodor

Kubur · 17th July 2019, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Looking through Elgood's book, in the chapter on yataghans on p. 146, figure 167 shows a yataghan with a similar bolster described by Elgood as originating from Crete or Southern Greece. He does not show that many yataghans of this type, unfortunately - the other one in the same chapter just has a date, no attribution. Lord Byron had a smaller dagger of the same type.

Teodor

Precisely there is nothing in this chapter to support your assumption on the blade or even the bolster...
I'm ready to be convinced and to change my mind just give me something solid.

mariusgmioc · 17th July 2019, 03:01 PM

Don't we have any Turkish forum members with access to Turkish bibliography?

I wonder what happened to Zifir?!

TVV · 17th July 2019, 03:11 PM

For the benefit of Khelben and anyone else who does not have access to Elgood's "The Arms of Greece" here is the page, which shows a yataghan of the distinct style in question, identified as Cretan/South-Western Greek.

Teodor

mariusgmioc · 17th July 2019, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

For the benefit of Khelben and anyone else who does not have access to Elgood's "The Arms of Greece" here is the page, which shows a yataghan of the distinct style in question, identified as Cretan/South-Western Greek.

Teodor

Please note that Elgood says "probably"...

Moreover, as I said after reading his book (I think there is a thread with comments on his book) on the arms of Greece, most if not all the attributions of origin in his book are purely anecdotal. He does not explain why a certain piece may be from one place and not from another and is quite silent about the features that characterise each area.

So I cannot consider Elgood's book as a reference!

However, movement of wares and skills was so wide in the Ottomoan empire that in most cases it will be impossibe to establish with a reasonable level of certainty the origin of some pieces.

Dubito ergo cogito...

Kubur · 17th July 2019, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Please note that Elgood says "probably"...

Moreover, as I said after reading his book (I think there is a thread with comments on his book) on the arms of Greece, most if not all the attributions of origin in his book are purely anecdotal. He does not explain why a certain piece may be from one place and not from another and is quite silent about the features that characterise each area.

So I cannot consider Elgood's book as a reference!

However, movement of wares and skills was so wide in the Ottomoan empire that in most cases it will be impossibe to establish with a reasonable level of certainty the origin of some pieces.

Dubito ergo cogito...

"probably" because this man is clever and modest not like us... the forum members....

Kubur · 17th July 2019, 04:51 PM

My last word
as Ariel wrote and as we all know
Greece was part of the Balkans
so expect Epirus work that is very easy to distinguish
its extremely difficult to say if a yataghan is Greek or Bosnian or Albanian...
its the reason why Elgood wrote probably
and the reason why i said toTeodor to be more cautious too...

ariel · 17th July 2019, 03:55 PM

Kubur,
Yataghans, with the exception of Zeibek ones, cannot be attributed by their blades. The latter were produced en masse in unknown centers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Sarajevo is perhaps the only known Bosnian center and the Bulgarian origin of some can be tentatively suspected by their modest appearance . From there they were sold all over the Empire. You may want to re-read Elgood for the descriptions of trade. The blades were then dressed according to local tastes and that usually serves as the only more or less reliable identifier.

If you can provide an unbeatable system of localizing the origin of yataghan blades, you will deserve our undying gratitude. Meanwhile, we shall stick to the decorations, fully understanding their tentative value. We cannot do better than that. Help us. The ball is in your court.

ariel · 17th July 2019, 04:02 PM

Teodor,
Precisely.
The art of niello , according to Circassian master Asia Eutykh, was brought to Caucasus by the Greeks. She traces her name to somebody names Eutyhios.

Kubur · 17th July 2019, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Kubur,
Yataghans, with the exception of Zeibek ones, cannot be attributed by their blades. The latter were produced en masse in unknown centers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Sarajevo is perhaps the only known Bosnian center and the Bulgarian origin of some can be tentatively suspected by their modest appearance . From there they were sold all over the Empire. You may want to re-read Elgood for the descriptions of trade. The blades were then dressed according to local tastes and that usually serves as the only more or less reliable identifier.

If you can provide an unbeatable system of localizing the origin of yataghan blades, you will deserve our undying gratitude. Meanwhile, we shall stick to the decorations, fully understanding their tentative value. We cannot do better than that. Help us. The ball is in your court.

Teodor so you are saying that your attribution based on the blade shape is not a proof. It is the reason why i like this forum but i generaly avoid endless debates, for me its game over. You dont have any proof that this yataghan is Greek.

TVV · 17th July 2019, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Teodor so you are saying that your attribution based on the blade shape is not a proof. It is the reason why i like this forum but i generaly avoid endless debates, for me its game over. You dont have any proof that this yataghan is Greek.

I think you are confusing my and Ariel's responses.

My purpose here is not to convince anyone of anything or "win" debates. It was to answer Khelben's inquiry, based on the information I have at hand. I completely agree with you that the study or antique arms and armor is not an exact science, when it comes to regional and ethnic attribution. That being said, to me, these yataghans are Greek based on Elgood's attribution and their appearance in Greek context (as opposed to Bulgarian, Bosnian, etc.). If you disagree with the Greek attribution, this is perfectly fine, but it would be nice to produce evidence supporting a different attribution, for the education of everyone here.

Kubur · 17th July 2019, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I think you are confusing my and Ariel's responses.

My purpose here is not to convince anyone of anything or "win" debates. It was to answer Khelben's inquiry, based on the information I have at hand. I completely agree with you that the study or antique arms and armor is not an exact science, when it comes to regional and ethnic attribution. That being said, to me, these yataghans are Greek based on Elgood's attribution and their appearance in Greek context (as opposed to Bulgarian, Bosnian, etc.). If you disagree with the Greek attribution, this is perfectly fine, but it would be nice to produce evidence supporting a different attribution, for the education of everyone here.

It's the opposite and it's funny that that you turn my question to you into a question to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

However, decorative techniques and motives were based on regional preference, and the shape and decoration of the bolster is associated with Greece. The style of the blade, with the upturned tip is also a Cretan and Greek characteristic. So based on this, it seems most likely that this yataghan was made in Greece.
Teodor

I used Elgood to demonstrate that your attribution was wrong and i asked you to provide evidence.
You didn't provide any evidences and worst you use the reference that I produced as an evidence and you try to put the ball on my side. I even shouldn't waste my time to write... You are not the first forum member to do that. This is not serious and childish. End of.

TVV · 17th July 2019, 06:49 PM

Oh boy, that escalated quickly. Before the moderators act, I will make one more attempt to clarify my participation and position in this thread - it was in response to Khleben, not personally to you, Kubur. I actually value and respect your opinion, Kubur, I really do, even if we disagree on something.

Back to my response in post 2 - I answered Khleben's question based on my knowledge. It is always good to questions answers to make sure whether correct or not, this is what the forum is for and I do not mid that a bit. So I provided a copy of a relevant figure from Elgood's book, which is the only book that actually makes an attempt to attribute yataghans geographically based on the author's study of museum collections in Greece and the Western Balkans.

At this point, it is really up to everyone reading the thread to make their own conclusions based on the information presented here - and hopefully do so without letting their emotions get the better of them.

17th July 2019, 03:01 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,882	Don't we have any Turkish forum members with access to Turkish bibliography? I wonder what happened to Zifir?! Last edited by mariusgmioc; 17th July 2019 at 03:47 PM.

17th July 2019, 03:11 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,601	For the benefit of Khelben and anyone else who does not have access to Elgood's "The Arms of Greece" here is the page, which shows a yataghan of the distinct style in question, identified as Cretan/South-Western Greek. Teodor Attached Images

17th July 2019, 05:47 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,601	Looking through Elgood's book, in the chapter on yataghans on p. 146, figure 167 shows a yataghan with a similar bolster described by Elgood as originating from Crete or Southern Greece. He does not show that many yataghans of this type, unfortunately - the other one in the same chapter just has a date, no attribution. Lord Byron had a smaller dagger of the same type. Teodor

17th July 2019, 04:51 PM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	My last word as Ariel wrote and as we all know Greece was part of the Balkans so expect Epirus work that is very easy to distinguish its extremely difficult to say if a yataghan is Greek or Bosnian or Albanian... its the reason why Elgood wrote probably and the reason why i said toTeodor to be more cautious too...

17th July 2019, 03:55 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, Yataghans, with the exception of Zeibek ones, cannot be attributed by their blades. The latter were produced en masse in unknown centers in Anatolia and the Balkans. Sarajevo is perhaps the only known Bosnian center and the Bulgarian origin of some can be tentatively suspected by their modest appearance . From there they were sold all over the Empire. You may want to re-read Elgood for the descriptions of trade. The blades were then dressed according to local tastes and that usually serves as the only more or less reliable identifier. If you can provide an unbeatable system of localizing the origin of yataghan blades, you will deserve our undying gratitude. Meanwhile, we shall stick to the decorations, fully understanding their tentative value. We cannot do better than that. Help us. The ball is in your court.

17th July 2019, 04:02 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Teodor, Precisely. The art of niello , according to Circassian master Asia Eutykh, was brought to Caucasus by the Greeks. She traces her name to somebody names Eutyhios.

17th July 2019, 06:49 PM	#13
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,601	Oh boy, that escalated quickly. Before the moderators act, I will make one more attempt to clarify my participation and position in this thread - it was in response to Khleben, not personally to you, Kubur. I actually value and respect your opinion, Kubur, I really do, even if we disagree on something. Back to my response in post 2 - I answered Khleben's question based on my knowledge. It is always good to questions answers to make sure whether correct or not, this is what the forum is for and I do not mid that a bit. So I provided a copy of a relevant figure from Elgood's book, which is the only book that actually makes an attempt to attribute yataghans geographically based on the author's study of museum collections in Greece and the Western Balkans. At this point, it is really up to everyone reading the thread to make their own conclusions based on the information presented here - and hopefully do so without letting their emotions get the better of them.