Guess this Indian sword

Jens Nordlunde · 4th May 2005, 04:45 PM

Maybe I have bent the rules, just a little bit, by showing these pictures, but I did it to the benefit of the members. So I don’t hope the moderators will quarter me and put me on a wheel, as I have done this on my own risk, and that is risky enough as it is. I know the quality of the pictures is bad, but that is all I have - sorry.

What is this?

It is Indian, but from where in India is it?

What is so special about it?

What is it called?

I know the answers to these questions, but I thought it could be funny to see if someone else knows, or can guess it. I will bring the answers later, but until then gentlemen, please take a number and wait for your time to give your answer to the questions.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th December 2014, 06:16 PM

The same swords/daggers would have different names in the different parts of India.
This is no doubt due to the influence from different countries, like Turky, Persia, Afghanistan and other countries.
It does not mean much as collectors now use mostly the same terms, but it is good/interesting to know what they were called then.
To know the different terms is good, as you may see a term used, which is not common and no illustration used, you will still know what kind of weapon it is.
Jens

RobT · 5th May 2005, 03:07 AM

Oh well, time to display my ignorance I guess. I believe the sword Jens shows is a Sosun pattah with an Indo/Muslim hilt. Given the T-rib, I would guess it was from somewhere around Afghanistan. As to why it's so special, aside from the fact that it's a really beautiful sword, I have no idea. What I don't understand is that the sword that Rick shows is appears to be a kirach with a Hindu basket hilt. I know I'm missing something and it's going to be something very obvious and I'm going to feel like a jerk.
Sincerely,
RobT

Ian · 5th May 2005, 06:21 AM

Obviously we have two different swords here.

Jens picture shows an Indo-Persian (tulwar) hilted sword with recurved blade and T-spine. The blade resembles a yataghan, but as Rob has noted it is probably a sossun patah of Islamic form (versus Hindu form). We have seen T-spined yataghan before, I think with Ottoman hilts, but I don't recall one with a tulwar hilt. I agree with Rob that the T-spine suggests the NW Frontier region: Afghanistan or nearby. The scabbard seems unusual also in that the suspension system is two rings mounted at the throat of the scabbard, similar to Moroccan swords and knives. I'm out of my depth trying to expain the origin of that feature.

Rick's sword, as noted by Rob, resembles a kirach, with a pointed downcurved blade. Again the large false edge and partial T-spine seem unusual, and might suggest NW India. What strikes me as most obviously uncommon on this one is the hilt -- a hybrid between the Indian basket hilt and the Indo-Persian (tulwar) hilt. We saw a couple of pictures illustrating this transitional form of hilt at Timonium, and I think they were attributed to a particular period, as the fashion shifted from the older Indian basket form to the tulwar form, but again I don't recall the exact time frame. I was sitting next to Jim McDougall who was taking copious notes,

so I'm sure Jim will be contributing here shortly.

Ian.

Conogre · 5th May 2005, 07:58 AM

I'm obviously missing the point here, but perhaps it's only in the wording and too subtle for my present frame of mind.
The 2nd also appears to have a "firengi" quality to the hilt, very much in keeping with the blade as an adapted form.
Mike

Jens Nordlunde · 5th May 2005, 11:26 AM

It is Indian, but from where in India is it? It is a special sword from Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Deccan.
What is so special about it? The T spine.
What is it called? Sailaba.

Hilt 17 cm.

Blade 65 cm.

18th century

In ‘A Catalogue of Arms and Armour in the State Museum, Hyderabad’, 1975, I found this picture, and found it interesting enough to show. Had I not known from where the sailaba came, I might have guessed on a place far more to the north, but the text to the illustration clearly states that it is a special sword from Hyderabad. What is even more interesting is, that in the catalogue they have a kind of an inventory list of the weapons in the museum, and here it states that they have twenty-seven sailaba’s.
In the catalogue they have sailaba’s from 17th to 19th century, and the length of the blades are from 44 to 77 cm.
The sailaba shown have an inscription on the blade with the name ‘Saheb Ali’ and the date given is 1194 H.

Rick's sword is of course a kirach, but it is an unusual kirach as the false edge is very long, just as the heavy reinforcement of the spine is heavier than normally seen. Tulwar/basket hilts are seen, but not so often.

Jeff D · 5th May 2005, 05:15 PM

Hi Jens,

Is the date 1194 or is it 1197?

Jeff

4th May 2005, 04:45 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Guess this Indian sword Maybe I have bent the rules, just a little bit, by showing these pictures, but I did it to the benefit of the members. So I don’t hope the moderators will quarter me and put me on a wheel, as I have done this on my own risk, and that is risky enough as it is. I know the quality of the pictures is bad, but that is all I have - sorry. What is this? It is Indian, but from where in India is it? What is so special about it? What is it called? I know the answers to these questions, but I thought it could be funny to see if someone else knows, or can guess it. I will bring the answers later, but until then gentlemen, please take a number and wait for your time to give your answer to the questions. Attached Images

27th December 2014, 06:16 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	The same swords/daggers would have different names in the different parts of India. This is no doubt due to the influence from different countries, like Turky, Persia, Afghanistan and other countries. It does not mean much as collectors now use mostly the same terms, but it is good/interesting to know what they were called then. To know the different terms is good, as you may see a term used, which is not common and no illustration used, you will still know what kind of weapon it is. Jens

5th May 2005, 03:07 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 455	Oh well, time to display my ignorance I guess. I believe the sword Jens shows is a Sosun pattah with an Indo/Muslim hilt. Given the T-rib, I would guess it was from somewhere around Afghanistan. As to why it's so special, aside from the fact that it's a really beautiful sword, I have no idea. What I don't understand is that the sword that Rick shows is appears to be a kirach with a Hindu basket hilt. I know I'm missing something and it's going to be something very obvious and I'm going to feel like a jerk. Sincerely, RobT

5th May 2005, 06:21 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,034	Obviously we have two different swords here. Jens picture shows an Indo-Persian (tulwar) hilted sword with recurved blade and T-spine. The blade resembles a yataghan, but as Rob has noted it is probably a sossun patah of Islamic form (versus Hindu form). We have seen T-spined yataghan before, I think with Ottoman hilts, but I don't recall one with a tulwar hilt. I agree with Rob that the T-spine suggests the NW Frontier region: Afghanistan or nearby. The scabbard seems unusual also in that the suspension system is two rings mounted at the throat of the scabbard, similar to Moroccan swords and knives. I'm out of my depth trying to expain the origin of that feature. Rick's sword, as noted by Rob, resembles a kirach, with a pointed downcurved blade. Again the large false edge and partial T-spine seem unusual, and might suggest NW India. What strikes me as most obviously uncommon on this one is the hilt -- a hybrid between the Indian basket hilt and the Indo-Persian (tulwar) hilt. We saw a couple of pictures illustrating this transitional form of hilt at Timonium, and I think they were attributed to a particular period, as the fashion shifted from the older Indian basket form to the tulwar form, but again I don't recall the exact time frame. I was sitting next to Jim McDougall who was taking copious notes, so I'm sure Jim will be contributing here shortly. Ian.

5th May 2005, 07:58 AM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I'm obviously missing the point here, but perhaps it's only in the wording and too subtle for my present frame of mind. The 2nd also appears to have a "firengi" quality to the hilt, very much in keeping with the blade as an adapted form. Mike

5th May 2005, 11:26 AM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	It is Indian, but from where in India is it? It is a special sword from Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Deccan. What is so special about it? The T spine. What is it called? Sailaba. Hilt 17 cm. Blade 65 cm. 18th century In ‘A Catalogue of Arms and Armour in the State Museum, Hyderabad’, 1975, I found this picture, and found it interesting enough to show. Had I not known from where the sailaba came, I might have guessed on a place far more to the north, but the text to the illustration clearly states that it is a special sword from Hyderabad. What is even more interesting is, that in the catalogue they have a kind of an inventory list of the weapons in the museum, and here it states that they have twenty-seven sailaba’s. In the catalogue they have sailaba’s from 17th to 19th century, and the length of the blades are from 44 to 77 cm. The sailaba shown have an inscription on the blade with the name ‘Saheb Ali’ and the date given is 1194 H. Rick's sword is of course a kirach, but it is an unusual kirach as the false edge is very long, just as the heavy reinforcement of the spine is heavier than normally seen. Tulwar/basket hilts are seen, but not so often.

5th May 2005, 05:15 PM	#7
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jens, Is the date 1194 or is it 1197? Jeff