Evidence for fake Moro Kris / Keris Sundang?

kai · 28th July 2005, 01:40 AM

Are there any fake Moro Kris which have been verified? (I'm excluding later Kris without separate gangya since these are not antique anyway. And also the Indian wannabees are easy to spot...)

I gather that there will be exceptions to the general rule of thumb for assessing the age of a Kris (Keris Sundang) based on the gangya configuration. It's also stipulated that fittings have often been swapped between blades. Recently, I've even seen Kris blades fitted with brass hilts which seemed to be a recent marriage...

(While this has most likely been done to enhance sales and the latter example pretty much stretches it, I'd not consider this faking per se since the age of the piece hasn't been intentionally misrepresented.

However, given that for just about anything else there are many fake "antiques" being manufactured in the Philippines (and elsewhere!), I'd have expected that people start forging new kris with separate gangya again (and artificially age them). Any observations?

Regards,
Kai

Ian · 28th July 2005, 03:27 AM

Please refrain from discussing here any item that is listed, or may be relisted shortly, on eBay.

Ian.

kai · 28th July 2005, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Please refrain from discussing here any item that is listed, or may be relisted shortly, on eBay.

Just to clarify: I opened this new thread to discuss the situation in general and not any specific piece. However, it would be great if people were to post pics from their own collections to illustrate points being discussed. TIA!

Spunjer · 28th July 2005, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill
Spunger, Agree that the straight gangya line means a really old blade; for the few really old blades I have the gangya is very narrow ... & the file work is minimal on the guard side, as well, fully defined curves rather than waves.

Hi, Bill, could you please show us pics of these gangya? Pretty please...

ian, i hope i'm not breaking any rules but if i am, my apologies and please feel free to delete this reply.

hi kai,

read this query on the other thread.
anyway, i have one that has a narrow gangya. i'm not sure if this is what bill meant but he estimated this particular one to be around 175 years. hope this helps.

Mark · 28th July 2005, 03:16 PM

::groan:: You guys really know how to give your conscientious moderators heartache.

All I ask is that everyone refrain from making reference to on-going auctions (which includes making sure an item isn't in an active auction before you post about it -- that is your responsibility). So far this is a nice, academic thread, but its tetering on the edge, so please be ... well, careful. This is a weird situation because there is an ended auction, so discussion was rightly started, but it might re-list -- a case of first impression as we lawyers say.

This isn't an issue of censorship or whatever (or of course criticism). Its just that we have this policy and we want to apply it consistently and fairly. It does get hard sometimes being the cop when you want to just hang out with the guys, too, so we need your help.

Thanks!

kai · 29th July 2005, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

So far this is a nice, academic thread, but its tetering on the edge, so please be ... well, careful.

I'd like to keep it focused on established fakes and suitable tell-tale signs, too. Thanks!

kai · 29th July 2005, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

anyway, i have one that has a narrow gangya. i'm not sure if this is what bill meant but he estimated this particular one to be around 175 years. hope this helps.

Thanks for the pics, Spunjer! However, your nice kris isn't a fake (AFAI can tell...

) so we probably should start a separate thread to keep this discussion focused on fakes.

Regards,
Kai

VANDOO · 28th July 2005, 03:40 AM

THE ART OF PRODUCING FAKE OBJECTS GOES WAY BACK AND PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING OF HIGH VALUE OR DEMAND HAS BEEN FAKED OR WILL BE. FORTUNATELY MOST PEOPLE WHO DO THE FAKEING EITHER CUT CORNERS AND DO A POOR JOB OF REPRODUCING THE OBJECT OR JUST GET SOMETHING AND MISREPRESENT IT AS RARE AND VALUEABLE. THEY USUALLY ARE LOOKING FOR A EASY SCORE AND DON'T WANT TO PUT TOO MUCH WORK OR MONEY INTO THE SCAM. BUYING SOMETHING BASED ONLY ON A POOR PICTURE AND DESCRIPTION, THEN SENDING THE MONEY FIRST TO A STRANGER IN ANOTHER PART OF THE COUNTRY OR WORLD PUTS THE BUYER AT A TREMENDOUS DISADVANTAGE. IT IS SURPRIZING THAT EBAY USUALLY WORKS AS WELL AS IT DOES, BUT YOU CAN BE SURE THE PEOPLE LOOKING FOR A EASY BUCK WILL BE CHECKING OUT NEW WAYS TO WORK THEIR SCAMS AND IF SUCESSFUL WILL BECOME MORE NUMEROUS IN FUTURE. THE GOOD THING IS THERE ARE MANY DEALERS ON EBAY WHO ARE FAIR AND HONEST SO IF YOU KNOW THEM OR SOMEONE WHO HAS DONE BUSINESS WITH THEM IT IS USUALLY OK, BUT AS IN LIFE BEWARE OF STRANGERS!

THERE ARE STILL WEAPONS BEING MADE IN SEVERAL AREAS OF THE WORLD, FOR SOUVINEERS, COLLECTORS, MARTIAL ARTS AND USE. THEY RANGE FROM JUNK TO AS GOOD AS THERE EVER WAS, A VERY GOOD CRAFSTMAN USUALLY IS PROUD OF HIS WORK AND WILL NOT SELL IT FOR SOMETHING ITS NOT BUT WILL CHARGE A GOOD PRICE. SUPERIOR RECENT WORK IS OFTEN MORE EXPENSIVE THAN A ANTIQUE BUT AS IN THE PAST IT IS ALWAYS EXPENSIVE TO BUY A MASTERPIECE FROM THE MASTER.

Federico · 28th July 2005, 05:16 AM

Most common method of faking that is popping up right now in Moro kris, are old blades new fittings. Usually missing the asang-asang, lots of dirt on the hilts, black blade, etc... Essentially the blade tends to have that buried look, and fittings tend to also be very very dirty. These can be hard to identify, especially when done right, there is enough old parts to make wishful collectors turn a blind eye. There are however a couple tells that pop up. A. the seller story These are most commonly sold by antique dealers in PI, and the story is invariably the same, and generally the sword's origins are extravagent eg. its a datu piece or its X years old etc... In many cases where the blade is old, but the fittings are of nicer quality, this can be real hard to tell particularly when held in the hand. B. the frequency that X datu piece of the exact same style just seems to pop up in numerous locations in large numbers. With a little common sense, what is the odds of 5 of the exact same style, design, local, story kris ending up in the same shop, particularly if they are old family heirlooms of considerable age. Even the best reputable dealers, rarely get two swords in stock that are the same style, numerous pieces that look exactly the same, and all happen to be in the same shop, well.... C. modern parts/construction methods, like modern epoxies, solid fittings, etc... Can be hard to see under all the dirt, but once cleaned will be visible

The next most common fakes that get pushed in antiques markets are new swords, pawned off as old. These often get the tourist label stamped on them here on the forums, but in certain well many cases this is not warranted. These are the most common on Ebay and other such places, and usually have vague references to age. A few sellers are honest about them, and the quality of the blades/fittings can be quite high. I have not sold my newer pieces, partly because the okir work is so wonderfully done, they make great study pieces for okir. Just dont buy the stories that they are old. With these pieces, the whole fake aspect comes in the story of the seller, and not necessarily that the piece was made with the intention of being passed off as a fake.

As for swapping old parts, changing blades, etc... Well it happens, and many times it is no indication of fake or not. Repairs get done. Sometimes gangyas/blades get damaged, and repaired. When done right, most here cannot detect a period repair, and even then there is alot of controversy. Anyways, cant comment much further until the other thread opens up.

kai · 29th July 2005, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

Most common method of faking that is popping up right now in Moro kris, are old blades new fittings. Usually missing the asang-asang, lots of dirt on the hilts, black blade, etc... Essentially the blade tends to have that buried look, and fittings tend to also be very very dirty. These can be hard to identify, especially when done right, there is enough old parts to make wishful collectors turn a blind eye. There are however a couple tells that pop up. A. the seller story These are most commonly sold by antique dealers in PI, and the story is invariably the same, and generally the sword's origins are extravagent eg. its a datu piece or its X years old etc... In many cases where the blade is old, but the fittings are of nicer quality, this can be real hard to tell particularly when held in the hand. B. the frequency that X datu piece of the exact same style just seems to pop up in numerous locations in large numbers. With a little common sense, what is the odds of 5 of the exact same style, design, local, story kris ending up in the same shop, particularly if they are old family heirlooms of considerable age. Even the best reputable dealers, rarely get two swords in stock that are the same style, numerous pieces that look exactly the same, and all happen to be in the same shop, well.... C. modern parts/construction methods, like modern epoxies, solid fittings, etc... Can be hard to see under all the dirt, but once cleaned will be visible

Thanks, Federico!

Quote:

The next most common fakes that get pushed in antiques markets are new swords, pawned off as old. These often get the tourist label stamped on them here on the forums, but in certain well many cases this is not warranted.

The real tourist pieces seem invariably come with those shortcuts mentioned - they just don't look right...

Quote:

These are the most common on Ebay and other such places, and usually have vague references to age. A few sellers are honest about them, and the quality of the blades/fittings can be quite high. I have not sold my newer pieces, partly because the okir work is so wonderfully done, they make great study pieces for okir. Just dont buy the stories that they are old. With these pieces, the whole fake aspect comes in the story of the seller, and not necessarily that the piece was made with the intention of being passed off as a fake.

Yup, especially the newer gunongs often come with elaborate fittings & okir. However, newer kris always seem to come with integral gangya or are there new examples with separate ones?

Regards,
Kai

Federico · 29th July 2005, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

However, newer kris always seem to come with integral gangya or are there new examples with separate ones?

Regards,
Kai

I personally havent seen a newly "Moro" made kris with a separate gangya since the demarkation line of circa 1930s. By that point in time even collectors back then started noticing the trend, as can be evidenced in period writing regarding these weapons (Im thinking its either in Stones or Hutchings where the author makes the comment that lately the gangyas have not been separate but then its been a while since Ive done much reading on the subject). Now, the caveat of I have not seen recently made "Moro" kris with separate gangyas is that newly made Indo/Malay kris sundang do have separate gangyas still, and in the context of faking, if an unscrupulous seller decided to call it Moro in an attempt to pass it off as older, then there is that possibility. As for how to tell newly made or even old Indo/Malay kris sundang vs Moro kris, well that is a topic that we've debated often here to no clear agreement.

Bill · 29th July 2005, 04:46 PM

Haven't seen any blades that appear to be fakes, but as noted, there is a lot that have added fittings to increase the value. There has always been a lot of discussion on this forum on restoration v preservation. I think that when one has a exceptional piece, but in poor condition, it is better to preserve. If it is a 1900 kris missing its baca-baca & the hilt is missing the wrap, I see no reason not to restore it, as its original owners would, as long as it is done in the same manner that it was made. When the piece is upgraded, only to increase its value, I think the piece is ruined. I think many of us are likely to own Datu pieces without realizing it. There were many Datu, & for the most part thier swords were most likely very simular to the people they governed. I think a Datu could be compared to 1st level management in todays corporate world. They usually had little input to policy but were required to follow commands given to them; & still having to look out for the interest & demands of the people they led. When times were good, they prospered & could afford to commision an exceptional sword; but I think that would be less common then we imagine.

kai · 29th July 2005, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THERE ARE STILL WEAPONS BEING MADE IN SEVERAL AREAS OF THE WORLD, FOR SOUVINEERS, COLLECTORS, MARTIAL ARTS AND USE. THEY RANGE FROM JUNK TO AS GOOD AS THERE EVER WAS, A VERY GOOD CRAFSTMAN USUALLY IS PROUD OF HIS WORK AND WILL NOT SELL IT FOR SOMETHING ITS NOT BUT WILL CHARGE A GOOD PRICE. SUPERIOR RECENT WORK IS OFTEN MORE EXPENSIVE THAN A ANTIQUE BUT AS IN THE PAST IT IS ALWAYS EXPENSIVE TO BUY A MASTERPIECE FROM THE MASTER.

Hi Vandoo,

I guess I share your ebay sentiments.

We probably need to keep in mind that good weapons used to be (very) expensive - often approaching prices comparable to an expensive car.

Considering this, those of us with pretty limited resources are lucky to even own a single nice blade much less building up decent collections...

Regards,
Kai

28th July 2005, 01:40 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,215	Evidence for fake Moro Kris / Keris Sundang? Are there any fake Moro Kris which have been verified? (I'm excluding later Kris without separate gangya since these are not antique anyway. And also the Indian wannabees are easy to spot...) I gather that there will be exceptions to the general rule of thumb for assessing the age of a Kris (Keris Sundang) based on the gangya configuration. It's also stipulated that fittings have often been swapped between blades. Recently, I've even seen Kris blades fitted with brass hilts which seemed to be a recent marriage... (While this has most likely been done to enhance sales and the latter example pretty much stretches it, I'd not consider this faking per se since the age of the piece hasn't been intentionally misrepresented. However, given that for just about anything else there are many fake "antiques" being manufactured in the Philippines (and elsewhere!), I'd have expected that people start forging new kris with separate gangya again (and artificially age them). Any observations? Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 28th July 2005 at 08:49 AM. Reason: Removed link not pertinent to the general question

28th July 2005, 03:27 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,023	Caution Please refrain from discussing here any item that is listed, or may be relisted shortly, on eBay. Ian.

28th July 2005, 03:16 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	So far, so good ... but ... ::groan:: You guys really know how to give your conscientious moderators heartache. All I ask is that everyone refrain from making reference to on-going auctions (which includes making sure an item isn't in an active auction before you post about it -- that is your responsibility). So far this is a nice, academic thread, but its tetering on the edge, so please be ... well, careful. This is a weird situation because there is an ended auction, so discussion was rightly started, but it might re-list -- a case of first impression as we lawyers say. This isn't an issue of censorship or whatever (or of course criticism). Its just that we have this policy and we want to apply it consistently and fairly. It does get hard sometimes being the cop when you want to just hang out with the guys, too, so we need your help. Thanks!

28th July 2005, 03:40 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE ART OF PRODUCING FAKE OBJECTS GOES WAY BACK AND PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING OF HIGH VALUE OR DEMAND HAS BEEN FAKED OR WILL BE. FORTUNATELY MOST PEOPLE WHO DO THE FAKEING EITHER CUT CORNERS AND DO A POOR JOB OF REPRODUCING THE OBJECT OR JUST GET SOMETHING AND MISREPRESENT IT AS RARE AND VALUEABLE. THEY USUALLY ARE LOOKING FOR A EASY SCORE AND DON'T WANT TO PUT TOO MUCH WORK OR MONEY INTO THE SCAM. BUYING SOMETHING BASED ONLY ON A POOR PICTURE AND DESCRIPTION, THEN SENDING THE MONEY FIRST TO A STRANGER IN ANOTHER PART OF THE COUNTRY OR WORLD PUTS THE BUYER AT A TREMENDOUS DISADVANTAGE. IT IS SURPRIZING THAT EBAY USUALLY WORKS AS WELL AS IT DOES, BUT YOU CAN BE SURE THE PEOPLE LOOKING FOR A EASY BUCK WILL BE CHECKING OUT NEW WAYS TO WORK THEIR SCAMS AND IF SUCESSFUL WILL BECOME MORE NUMEROUS IN FUTURE. THE GOOD THING IS THERE ARE MANY DEALERS ON EBAY WHO ARE FAIR AND HONEST SO IF YOU KNOW THEM OR SOMEONE WHO HAS DONE BUSINESS WITH THEM IT IS USUALLY OK, BUT AS IN LIFE BEWARE OF STRANGERS! THERE ARE STILL WEAPONS BEING MADE IN SEVERAL AREAS OF THE WORLD, FOR SOUVINEERS, COLLECTORS, MARTIAL ARTS AND USE. THEY RANGE FROM JUNK TO AS GOOD AS THERE EVER WAS, A VERY GOOD CRAFSTMAN USUALLY IS PROUD OF HIS WORK AND WILL NOT SELL IT FOR SOMETHING ITS NOT BUT WILL CHARGE A GOOD PRICE. SUPERIOR RECENT WORK IS OFTEN MORE EXPENSIVE THAN A ANTIQUE BUT AS IN THE PAST IT IS ALWAYS EXPENSIVE TO BUY A MASTERPIECE FROM THE MASTER.

28th July 2005, 05:16 AM	#9
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Most common method of faking that is popping up right now in Moro kris, are old blades new fittings. Usually missing the asang-asang, lots of dirt on the hilts, black blade, etc... Essentially the blade tends to have that buried look, and fittings tend to also be very very dirty. These can be hard to identify, especially when done right, there is enough old parts to make wishful collectors turn a blind eye. There are however a couple tells that pop up. A. the seller story These are most commonly sold by antique dealers in PI, and the story is invariably the same, and generally the sword's origins are extravagent eg. its a datu piece or its X years old etc... In many cases where the blade is old, but the fittings are of nicer quality, this can be real hard to tell particularly when held in the hand. B. the frequency that X datu piece of the exact same style just seems to pop up in numerous locations in large numbers. With a little common sense, what is the odds of 5 of the exact same style, design, local, story kris ending up in the same shop, particularly if they are old family heirlooms of considerable age. Even the best reputable dealers, rarely get two swords in stock that are the same style, numerous pieces that look exactly the same, and all happen to be in the same shop, well.... C. modern parts/construction methods, like modern epoxies, solid fittings, etc... Can be hard to see under all the dirt, but once cleaned will be visible The next most common fakes that get pushed in antiques markets are new swords, pawned off as old. These often get the tourist label stamped on them here on the forums, but in certain well many cases this is not warranted. These are the most common on Ebay and other such places, and usually have vague references to age. A few sellers are honest about them, and the quality of the blades/fittings can be quite high. I have not sold my newer pieces, partly because the okir work is so wonderfully done, they make great study pieces for okir. Just dont buy the stories that they are old. With these pieces, the whole fake aspect comes in the story of the seller, and not necessarily that the piece was made with the intention of being passed off as a fake. As for swapping old parts, changing blades, etc... Well it happens, and many times it is no indication of fake or not. Repairs get done. Sometimes gangyas/blades get damaged, and repaired. When done right, most here cannot detect a period repair, and even then there is alot of controversy. Anyways, cant comment much further until the other thread opens up.

29th July 2005, 04:46 PM	#12
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Haven't seen any blades that appear to be fakes, but as noted, there is a lot that have added fittings to increase the value. There has always been a lot of discussion on this forum on restoration v preservation. I think that when one has a exceptional piece, but in poor condition, it is better to preserve. If it is a 1900 kris missing its baca-baca & the hilt is missing the wrap, I see no reason not to restore it, as its original owners would, as long as it is done in the same manner that it was made. When the piece is upgraded, only to increase its value, I think the piece is ruined. I think many of us are likely to own Datu pieces without realizing it. There were many Datu, & for the most part thier swords were most likely very simular to the people they governed. I think a Datu could be compared to 1st level management in todays corporate world. They usually had little input to policy but were required to follow commands given to them; & still having to look out for the interest & demands of the people they led. When times were good, they prospered & could afford to commision an exceptional sword; but I think that would be less common then we imagine.