Iraq Dagger

Aurangzeb · 1st October 2005, 04:51 AM

Hello All!

I just bought this off Therion-Arms, although it is described as berber I think it is Iraqi it looks similer to Marsh arab daggers. Comments are welcome!

Mark...

http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/...arms_c731.html

Tim Simmons · 1st October 2005, 10:32 AM

Hello Mark, it has got that look but could also be from many other places like the horn of Africa, Yemin and so on. Nice shapes, is the handle brass? Looks like a good quality blade. Nice!

Tim

Aurangzeb · 1st October 2005, 05:48 PM

Hello Tim!

Yes the handle is brass, and apperars to be good quality.

Mark...

TVV · 1st October 2005, 08:31 PM

Aurangzeb, the question about the origin of this type of daggers is one whose answer I would also like to know, and I will surely be visiting this thread often. You are quite right that the shape of the blade is indeed quite similar to the shape of the blades on Marsh Arab daggers, yet Hal from Therion also has a strong point about North Africa due to the brass work and the decoration motives on the hilt. One of the many great things about this forum is that newbies such as us could hope to find answers to questions about the origin of weapons such as this one, and I am sure someone here will know with certainty where this particular dagger came from. All I know is that I have seen at least several other examples from this type, so it must be a type of its own.
Wherever it turns out to be from, congratulations on a nice dagger that has the specific charm of old plain weapons, which may lack in decoration but were meant for serious use.
Regards,
Teodor

Tim Simmons · 1st October 2005, 09:11 PM

Looking again and I think you are right that it is not Berber but I do not think that it is marsh Arab though I can see why you might think so. I have a couple in the attic which I shall get down and post tomorrow. I question Berber and marsh Arab origin because the curved blade is made with an angle rather than a sweeping curve. This is seen most commonly in the horn of Africa a vast region and the Yemen. Personally I would say it was from the countries that make up the horn rather than Yemen. Tim

Aurangzeb · 2nd October 2005, 05:49 AM

Hello Tim!

I have never seen any curved daggers from the horn, this will be my first. I thought it was just a very crude Iraqi dagger.

Mark...

Tim Simmons · 2nd October 2005, 08:43 AM

I do not know for sure, it is just a feeling. The decoration just does not strick me as Arab. Tim

Aurangzeb · 2nd October 2005, 04:34 PM

Hello Tim!

You do have a point about the 'X' symbols on the handle but I have seen geometric paterns on arab/mid-eastern weapons before. The end of the handle reminds me of the end on the daggers of south Iraq, only cruder than normal. I have posted a link to a dagger that used to be on Oriental arms that shows some resmblence to the blade shape on the one I just bought.

Mark...

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=184

Aurangzeb · 5th October 2005, 01:20 AM

Does this mean that nobody knows for sure where this mystery dagger came from?

Justin · 5th October 2005, 02:49 PM

Personally I have seen a few of these over the last year or so and I had assumed that they were shibriya variants,I have a shibriya in my collection that has a blade with the same curve instead of a recurve.

Aurangzeb · 5th October 2005, 05:26 PM

Hello Justin!

Interesting, I never even thought of a shabriya varient but now that you mention it the hilt does look like one.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 31st January 2006, 01:02 AM

Sudan???? I found a very similer dagger on a website but I do not know if I can post a link to a item that is for sale.

Mark...

Oriental-Arms · 31st January 2006, 10:39 PM

Gentlemen

Sorry to come in so late, but I am afraid it is indeed a Palestinian dagger coming from the Northern parts of Israel / Palestine or south Syria. It may be mix of several daggers common to the area.

Generally the blades in daggers from the region covering Palestine, Israel, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon are divided into two main categories:

The Shyibria type with the re-curving blade (few examples shown above) which is common to the southern parts of Israel, to Jordan and to the Sinai peninsula

The Khanjar type, with the single curved blade, common to the northern parts of this region: North of Israel, South of Syria and Lebanon.

In both categories the handle will be of the standard “I” shaped, but made of whatever possible material found: wood, horn, bone, brass or any other metal, and the pommel in a variety of shapes: round, half round, triangular, slightly square and whatever the local maker had in mind when he produced the dagger.

A week ago, I have noticed in a small Israeli forum on Ethnographic weapons ( Unfortunately in Hebrew) a thread on this dagger:

It was collected in the 1973 war between Israel and Syria in a small village (Jubata el Hasheb, now in the international boundaries of Syria). The blade is in a shameful condition, the scabbard is a later scabbard of a Magdali Khanjar (this village is only 7 miles north of Magdal Shams, were the Magdali daggers were made), but the brass handle has a sticking similarity to the one posted above.

Hope this resolves the mystery

(Thanks to Mr. I. Meyuchas, who collected this dagger and was kind enough to allow me to post it here)

Aurangzeb · 31st January 2006, 11:21 PM

Hello Artzi!

better late than never!

Thank you so much for resolving this mystery. I can't thank you enough.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 2nd February 2006, 12:47 AM

Almost forgot is this a khanjar of jambiya, or are they the same thing?

Mark...

1st October 2005, 04:51 AM	#1
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Iraq Dagger Hello All! I just bought this off Therion-Arms, although it is described as berber I think it is Iraqi it looks similer to Marsh arab daggers. Comments are welcome! Mark... http://www.therionarms.com/antiques/...arms_c731.html

1st October 2005, 09:11 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Looking again and I think you are right that it is not Berber but I do not think that it is marsh Arab though I can see why you might think so. I have a couple in the attic which I shall get down and post tomorrow. I question Berber and marsh Arab origin because the curved blade is made with an angle rather than a sweeping curve. This is seen most commonly in the horn of Africa a vast region and the Yemen. Personally I would say it was from the countries that make up the horn rather than Yemen. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 1st October 2005 at 09:22 PM.

31st January 2006, 01:02 AM	#12
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Sudan???? I found a very similer dagger on a website but I do not know if I can post a link to a item that is for sale. Mark... Last edited by Aurangzeb; 31st January 2006 at 02:42 AM.

31st January 2006, 10:39 PM	#13
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Palestinian dagger Gentlemen Sorry to come in so late, but I am afraid it is indeed a Palestinian dagger coming from the Northern parts of Israel / Palestine or south Syria. It may be mix of several daggers common to the area. Generally the blades in daggers from the region covering Palestine, Israel, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon are divided into two main categories: The Shyibria type with the re-curving blade (few examples shown above) which is common to the southern parts of Israel, to Jordan and to the Sinai peninsula The Khanjar type, with the single curved blade, common to the northern parts of this region: North of Israel, South of Syria and Lebanon. In both categories the handle will be of the standard “I” shaped, but made of whatever possible material found: wood, horn, bone, brass or any other metal, and the pommel in a variety of shapes: round, half round, triangular, slightly square and whatever the local maker had in mind when he produced the dagger. A week ago, I have noticed in a small Israeli forum on Ethnographic weapons ( Unfortunately in Hebrew) a thread on this dagger: It was collected in the 1973 war between Israel and Syria in a small village (Jubata el Hasheb, now in the international boundaries of Syria). The blade is in a shameful condition, the scabbard is a later scabbard of a Magdali Khanjar (this village is only 7 miles north of Magdal Shams, were the Magdali daggers were made), but the brass handle has a sticking similarity to the one posted above. Hope this resolves the mystery (Thanks to Mr. I. Meyuchas, who collected this dagger and was kind enough to allow me to post it here)

1st October 2005, 10:32 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Hello Mark, it has got that look but could also be from many other places like the horn of Africa, Yemin and so on. Nice shapes, is the handle brass? Looks like a good quality blade. Nice! Tim

1st October 2005, 05:48 PM	#3
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Tim! Yes the handle is brass, and apperars to be good quality. Mark...

1st October 2005, 08:31 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,598	Aurangzeb, the question about the origin of this type of daggers is one whose answer I would also like to know, and I will surely be visiting this thread often. You are quite right that the shape of the blade is indeed quite similar to the shape of the blades on Marsh Arab daggers, yet Hal from Therion also has a strong point about North Africa due to the brass work and the decoration motives on the hilt. One of the many great things about this forum is that newbies such as us could hope to find answers to questions about the origin of weapons such as this one, and I am sure someone here will know with certainty where this particular dagger came from. All I know is that I have seen at least several other examples from this type, so it must be a type of its own. Wherever it turns out to be from, congratulations on a nice dagger that has the specific charm of old plain weapons, which may lack in decoration but were meant for serious use. Regards, Teodor

2nd October 2005, 05:49 AM	#6
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Tim! I have never seen any curved daggers from the horn, this will be my first. I thought it was just a very crude Iraqi dagger. Mark...

2nd October 2005, 08:43 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I do not know for sure, it is just a feeling. The decoration just does not strick me as Arab. Tim

2nd October 2005, 04:34 PM	#8
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Tim! You do have a point about the 'X' symbols on the handle but I have seen geometric paterns on arab/mid-eastern weapons before. The end of the handle reminds me of the end on the daggers of south Iraq, only cruder than normal. I have posted a link to a dagger that used to be on Oriental arms that shows some resmblence to the blade shape on the one I just bought. Mark... http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=184

5th October 2005, 01:20 AM	#9
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Does this mean that nobody knows for sure where this mystery dagger came from?

5th October 2005, 02:49 PM	#10
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Personally I have seen a few of these over the last year or so and I had assumed that they were shibriya variants,I have a shibriya in my collection that has a blade with the same curve instead of a recurve.

5th October 2005, 05:26 PM	#11
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Justin! Interesting, I never even thought of a shabriya varient but now that you mention it the hilt does look like one. Mark...

31st January 2006, 11:21 PM	#14
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello Artzi! better late than never! Thank you so much for resolving this mystery. I can't thank you enough. Mark...

2nd February 2006, 12:47 AM	#15
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Almost forgot is this a khanjar of jambiya, or are they the same thing? Mark...