A Taiwanese/Formosan tribal gun

yuanzhumin · 30th August 2016, 01:34 PM

For Kukulza28, read the thread. I hope it can be of any help on Taiwanese/Formosan tribal guns!

KuKulzA28 · 31st August 2016, 02:01 AM

Much thanks!

rickystl · 3rd September 2016, 06:35 PM

What an interesting gun. And accessories. As Phillip mentions, definately percussion based system. The most primitive percussion based system I've ever seen. Vey neat. I'm sure some sort of "pill" filiment system as Philip mentions. Just when I think I've seen everything, someone comes up with something I have not seen. LOL Very neat gun and accessories. And super interesting.

Rick

Philip · 3rd September 2016, 11:54 PM

Ricky,
There are several design features which link this gun to firearms in other cultures in the region:
1. Pistol-shaped buttstock held against the cheek -- deeply-curved shapes like this are found in the Laos/Vietnam/Cambodia highlands (mostly crude flintlocks), Shan states of Burma (mostly matchlocks), and the tribal areas of southwest China (usually with Indo-Portuguese snap matchlocks).
2. Trigger mounted on the side of the stock, not underneath -- same areas as above
3. The vast majority of guns from all those culture-spheres have half-stocks, and are not fitted for ramrods.

On the lock shown in this thread, note the mainspring pressing upward against the tail of the hammer. Although this is a percussion lock, this feature derives from the snap matchlocks brought to the East by the Portuguese in the 16th cent. The origin of this concept is south Germany/Bohemia late in the 15th cent. (the Portuguese Crown bought a lot of muskets from this area to replace earlier hand cannons on the eve of the Age of Discoveries). This system of motive power also carried over to the "miquelet" flint mechanism which became a hallmark of firearms technology in the Iberian Peninsula and central/south Italy, and later much of the Middle East as well.

rickystl · 4th September 2016, 02:06 PM

Philip:

Thanks for your reply. Again, thank you for the education of these firearms. Yes, I can readily understand the mainspring and trigger architecture. But had no clue as to it's origins. But it makes complete sense. Very interesting.
Curious the lack of ramrods. Would have to be carried seperately. Possibly, within these various tribes, there was no apparatus for drilling a straight hole (?). Or carrying the ramrod seperately may just be the tradition.

The gun, shooting accessories, and knife together would sure make a neat display.

Rick

Philip · 4th September 2016, 06:44 PM

I did read an account by a British observer of Chinese soldiers at drill firing volley salutes, they dispensed with the ramrod and merely gave the butt a smart rap on the ground after pouring their powder, and went on to prime and adjust the match before presenting and firing. A local reenactment group that does Thirty Years War drill with muskets and cannon does basically the same thing at their demonstrations, they aren't seating any bullets and don't want a forgotten ramrod to launch over the audience like a javelin. So the powder will ignite with a bang even if not actually compressed.

I discussed the lack of ramrods on these tribal guns with one of the club members and he said that a loosely fitting slug will slide down there on top of the powder without ramming if the bore wasn't too fouled. Of course the ballistics won't match that of a patched ball pushed onto the charge with a rod, but at close range it can still be deadly. Considering that these SE Asian and Taiwan tribes lived in dense mountainous rainforests where game was taken at close range, it was probably good enough for them. Stalking and ambush in shooting-stands along trails probably solved the distance problem rather well for them. Much like American Indians, whose bows had limited range.

Regarding the technical aspect of fitting a ramrod in a stock, I've disassembled a lot of Oriental guns and have found that since the overwhelming majority have barrels attached with bands and not mortises, there was no need to drill a long hole for the entire rod. The drilled hole only extends a few inches at the end, and this to keep the end of the rod separate from the bottom of the barrel. The rest is a carefully chiseled trough at the bottom of the barrel channel, just wide enough for the rod. Under the breech, the trough is cut so that the end of the rod nests tightly against the bottom of the barrel so it doesn't slide out. Easy! I've also noticed this construction on a fair number of earlier European long guns as well. This groove approach doesn't require the equipment that deep bore drilling does. A small saw with a radiused blade, and a very narrow chisel, are all you need.

I think that these tribal guns did away with rods is that they tend to have half stocks, and unless you have ramrod pipes attached to the bottom of your barrel, that could be an issue. Hill tribesmen tended to be good carvers, but the ability to make precisely formed small tubes of metal and solder them to the barrel might have been beyond them.

KuKulzA28 · 4th September 2016, 11:07 PM

More great insights...

Just wondering, is the powder 'horn' made of multiple pieces of wood? 4 for the sides and 1 for the base? 1 that acts as a deep "dish"/container and 1 as a flat covering, secured onto it?

I can get started carving a powder horn or other container...

I guess an important consideration is what ethnic group I'm emulating.... Any idea what the"pingpu"styles were?

3rd September 2016, 11:54 PM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	features in common Ricky, There are several design features which link this gun to firearms in other cultures in the region: 1. Pistol-shaped buttstock held against the cheek -- deeply-curved shapes like this are found in the Laos/Vietnam/Cambodia highlands (mostly crude flintlocks), Shan states of Burma (mostly matchlocks), and the tribal areas of southwest China (usually with Indo-Portuguese snap matchlocks). 2. Trigger mounted on the side of the stock, not underneath -- same areas as above 3. The vast majority of guns from all those culture-spheres have half-stocks, and are not fitted for ramrods. On the lock shown in this thread, note the mainspring pressing upward against the tail of the hammer. Although this is a percussion lock, this feature derives from the snap matchlocks brought to the East by the Portuguese in the 16th cent. The origin of this concept is south Germany/Bohemia late in the 15th cent. (the Portuguese Crown bought a lot of muskets from this area to replace earlier hand cannons on the eve of the Age of Discoveries). This system of motive power also carried over to the "miquelet" flint mechanism which became a hallmark of firearms technology in the Iberian Peninsula and central/south Italy, and later much of the Middle East as well.

4th September 2016, 06:44 PM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	ramrods or the lack thereof I did read an account by a British observer of Chinese soldiers at drill firing volley salutes, they dispensed with the ramrod and merely gave the butt a smart rap on the ground after pouring their powder, and went on to prime and adjust the match before presenting and firing. A local reenactment group that does Thirty Years War drill with muskets and cannon does basically the same thing at their demonstrations, they aren't seating any bullets and don't want a forgotten ramrod to launch over the audience like a javelin. So the powder will ignite with a bang even if not actually compressed. I discussed the lack of ramrods on these tribal guns with one of the club members and he said that a loosely fitting slug will slide down there on top of the powder without ramming if the bore wasn't too fouled. Of course the ballistics won't match that of a patched ball pushed onto the charge with a rod, but at close range it can still be deadly. Considering that these SE Asian and Taiwan tribes lived in dense mountainous rainforests where game was taken at close range, it was probably good enough for them. Stalking and ambush in shooting-stands along trails probably solved the distance problem rather well for them. Much like American Indians, whose bows had limited range. Regarding the technical aspect of fitting a ramrod in a stock, I've disassembled a lot of Oriental guns and have found that since the overwhelming majority have barrels attached with bands and not mortises, there was no need to drill a long hole for the entire rod. The drilled hole only extends a few inches at the end, and this to keep the end of the rod separate from the bottom of the barrel. The rest is a carefully chiseled trough at the bottom of the barrel channel, just wide enough for the rod. Under the breech, the trough is cut so that the end of the rod nests tightly against the bottom of the barrel so it doesn't slide out. Easy! I've also noticed this construction on a fair number of earlier European long guns as well. This groove approach doesn't require the equipment that deep bore drilling does. A small saw with a radiused blade, and a very narrow chisel, are all you need. I think that these tribal guns did away with rods is that they tend to have half stocks, and unless you have ramrod pipes attached to the bottom of your barrel, that could be an issue. Hill tribesmen tended to be good carvers, but the ability to make precisely formed small tubes of metal and solder them to the barrel might have been beyond them.

30th August 2016, 01:34 PM	#1
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	For Kukulza28, read the thread. I hope it can be of any help on Taiwanese/Formosan tribal guns!

31st August 2016, 02:01 AM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Much thanks!

3rd September 2016, 06:35 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	What an interesting gun. And accessories. As Phillip mentions, definately percussion based system. The most primitive percussion based system I've ever seen. Vey neat. I'm sure some sort of "pill" filiment system as Philip mentions. Just when I think I've seen everything, someone comes up with something I have not seen. LOL Very neat gun and accessories. And super interesting. Rick

4th September 2016, 02:06 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Philip: Thanks for your reply. Again, thank you for the education of these firearms. Yes, I can readily understand the mainspring and trigger architecture. But had no clue as to it's origins. But it makes complete sense. Very interesting. Curious the lack of ramrods. Would have to be carried seperately. Possibly, within these various tribes, there was no apparatus for drilling a straight hole (?). Or carrying the ramrod seperately may just be the tradition. The gun, shooting accessories, and knife together would sure make a neat display. Rick

4th September 2016, 11:07 PM	#7
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	More great insights... Just wondering, is the powder 'horn' made of multiple pieces of wood? 4 for the sides and 1 for the base? 1 that acts as a deep "dish"/container and 1 as a flat covering, secured onto it? I can get started carving a powder horn or other container... I guess an important consideration is what ethnic group I'm emulating.... Any idea what the"pingpu"styles were?