Could this be Chinese ?

fernando · 3rd December 2015, 12:44 PM

A small silver mounted dagger.
What could this be ... Chinese ?

.

Shakethetrees · 3rd December 2015, 02:45 PM

Better pictures would help, but I think it's from Mongolia.

blue lander · 3rd December 2015, 04:13 PM

Scabbard looks very Mongolian. Their dress knives have lots of silver on them.

Battara · 3rd December 2015, 05:19 PM

I agree with Mongolia.

Could the blade be a European trade blade?

fernando · 3rd December 2015, 06:10 PM

Assessments aknowledged.
Thank you so much, Gentlemen.

blue lander · 3rd December 2015, 09:23 PM

If you'd like (and you can produce more pictures) I can show it to some older Mongolian gentlemen to see what they think.

Shakethetrees · 3rd December 2015, 09:29 PM

When they wanted to make good blades, they were capable. I've seen some nice blades from there.

The really thick, wedge cross section is common throughout China, Burma, and other Asian countries. The file work on the back of the ricasso does not appear to be European in the manner in which it was done.

The scabbard decoration layout shows a strong Chinese influence that one can easily find in Mongolian and Tibetan knives.

fernando · 5th December 2015, 06:17 PM

Thank you guys ... and thank you blue lander for the kind suggestion. I have contacted again the owner and he had already traded it for something else with another fellow collector.

Peter Dekker · 18th January 2016, 03:05 PM

Sorry for chipping in so late, but the filed back of the blade is a common feature on Chinese knives and swords. I have the feeling it was somewhat more popular in the north. You see it a lot on larger niuweidao that were brought back from the boxer rebellion. I've had one with exactly the same dips in-between the perpendicular grooves. Usually, these are slightly shallower. I've even had an 18th century yanmaodao with the feature, indicating the stylistic feature goes back a while. I don't really know the meaning of these decorations, but some Chinese collectors have pointed out the likeness to bamboo, which traditionally stands for strength and resilience, properties you'd want from a knife or sword. It sounds like a pretty good explanation.

Apart from the back of the blade, I agree everything looks very Mongolian with some heavy Chinese influence like the stylized cloud fittings and the double lozenge on one side. (A pun for "victory") Beijing had a rather large Mongolian population during the Qing who lived in the Inner City under the Mongolian banners. There's a chance it was made there to suit the tastes of local Mongolian bannermen.

Sajen · 18th January 2016, 08:21 PM

I disagree with you folks. I think that the knife in question coming from the Dai people, North Laos/Yunnan, please compare the silver mounts with the ones we have seen by dha from this area. Also the file work at the spine let me think like this. But like always I could be wrong.

I am curious what the Mongolian friends from Blue Lander will tell him.

Regards,
Detlef

Gavin Nugent · 19th January 2016, 09:23 AM

Detlef, I agree with you on your assessment, so your not alone. All motifs and manufacture aspects do point to then region you note with the raised paste or gem being a little atypical of the region though.

Gavin

Peter Dekker · 19th January 2016, 12:27 PM

Good points!

While I was obsessively looking at blade and decorative elements, I agree the silverwork -while displaying typical Chinese design elements- is not very typical for Northern Chinese knives. Neither is the scabbard's round cross-section, which is commonly oval in Northern China. A quick search also turned up Yunnan scabbards with exactly those lozenges.

Detlef, do you have examples of these filed backs of knives or swords of Laos/Yunnan? I'd be interested in seeing some.

Gavin Nugent · 19th January 2016, 12:54 PM

Here are a couple Peter;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...64&postcount=4

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...04&postcount=9

Several others both single and of the paired types on the second link are also known with filed backs...

Personally, I believe both of these types are from the Laos regions inland from Hanoi...based on a Dah I have with fine provenance in identical dress to the pair in the first link...but there are years of study still to be done for both.

Gavin

Sajen · 19th January 2016, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Detlef, I agree with you on your assessment, so your not alone. All motifs and manufacture aspects do point to then region you note with the raised paste or gem being a little atypical of the region though.

Gavin

Hi Gavin,

good to know that I am not allone!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 19th January 2016, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Dekker

Detlef, do you have examples of these filed backs of knives or swords of Laos/Yunnan? I'd be interested in seeing some.

Hello Peter,

unfortunately not. Wish I have.

The shown example is very nice.

The two examples Gavin has posted are not an exact match but show what we mean.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 19th January 2016, 09:25 PM

Here some other examples which show that this knife coming from the suggested region:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=yunnan
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=yunnan (special post #6)

Regards,
Detlef

Gavin Nugent · 19th January 2016, 11:22 PM

Update shortly...

Gavin

Peter Dekker · 19th January 2016, 11:35 PM

Hi guys,

That's a very nice set of hudiedao you got there. I also very much like the engravings on the blade, thanks for sharing.

As for the exact file work on the back, file work of many kinds is quite common in China but I meant something really close to this knife in a Beijingnese oxtail.

Unfortunately I can't seem to find pics of the exact niuweidao I had in mind but here what's perhaps best described as a Chinese falchion I've had with similar features. Only, the dips between the segments of file work are less deep on these. On that oxtail, they were as deep as on the knife that is the subject of this thread.

3rd December 2015, 12:44 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Could this be Chinese ? A small silver mounted dagger. What could this be ... Chinese ? . Attached Images

19th January 2016, 09:23 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Detlef, I agree with you on your assessment, so your not alone. All motifs and manufacture aspects do point to then region you note with the raised paste or gem being a little atypical of the region though. Gavin Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 19th January 2016 at 12:28 PM.

19th January 2016, 11:35 PM	#18
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Hi guys, That's a very nice set of hudiedao you got there. I also very much like the engravings on the blade, thanks for sharing. As for the exact file work on the back, file work of many kinds is quite common in China but I meant something really close to this knife in a Beijingnese oxtail. Unfortunately I can't seem to find pics of the exact niuweidao I had in mind but here what's perhaps best described as a Chinese falchion I've had with similar features. Only, the dips between the segments of file work are less deep on these. On that oxtail, they were as deep as on the knife that is the subject of this thread. Attached Images

3rd December 2015, 02:45 PM	#2
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Better pictures would help, but I think it's from Mongolia.

3rd December 2015, 04:13 PM	#3
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Scabbard looks very Mongolian. Their dress knives have lots of silver on them.

3rd December 2015, 05:19 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I agree with Mongolia. Could the blade be a European trade blade?

3rd December 2015, 06:10 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Assessments aknowledged. Thank you so much, Gentlemen.

3rd December 2015, 09:23 PM	#6
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	If you'd like (and you can produce more pictures) I can show it to some older Mongolian gentlemen to see what they think.

3rd December 2015, 09:29 PM	#7
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	When they wanted to make good blades, they were capable. I've seen some nice blades from there. The really thick, wedge cross section is common throughout China, Burma, and other Asian countries. The file work on the back of the ricasso does not appear to be European in the manner in which it was done. The scabbard decoration layout shows a strong Chinese influence that one can easily find in Mongolian and Tibetan knives.

5th December 2015, 06:17 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Thank you guys ... and thank you blue lander for the kind suggestion. I have contacted again the owner and he had already traded it for something else with another fellow collector.

18th January 2016, 03:05 PM	#9
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Sorry for chipping in so late, but the filed back of the blade is a common feature on Chinese knives and swords. I have the feeling it was somewhat more popular in the north. You see it a lot on larger niuweidao that were brought back from the boxer rebellion. I've had one with exactly the same dips in-between the perpendicular grooves. Usually, these are slightly shallower. I've even had an 18th century yanmaodao with the feature, indicating the stylistic feature goes back a while. I don't really know the meaning of these decorations, but some Chinese collectors have pointed out the likeness to bamboo, which traditionally stands for strength and resilience, properties you'd want from a knife or sword. It sounds like a pretty good explanation. Apart from the back of the blade, I agree everything looks very Mongolian with some heavy Chinese influence like the stylized cloud fittings and the double lozenge on one side. (A pun for "victory") Beijing had a rather large Mongolian population during the Qing who lived in the Inner City under the Mongolian banners. There's a chance it was made there to suit the tastes of local Mongolian bannermen.

18th January 2016, 08:21 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,483	I disagree with you folks. I think that the knife in question coming from the Dai people, North Laos/Yunnan, please compare the silver mounts with the ones we have seen by dha from this area. Also the file work at the spine let me think like this. But like always I could be wrong. I am curious what the Mongolian friends from Blue Lander will tell him. Regards, Detlef

19th January 2016, 12:27 PM	#12
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Good points! While I was obsessively looking at blade and decorative elements, I agree the silverwork -while displaying typical Chinese design elements- is not very typical for Northern Chinese knives. Neither is the scabbard's round cross-section, which is commonly oval in Northern China. A quick search also turned up Yunnan scabbards with exactly those lozenges. Detlef, do you have examples of these filed backs of knives or swords of Laos/Yunnan? I'd be interested in seeing some.

19th January 2016, 12:54 PM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Here are a couple Peter; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...64&postcount=4 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...04&postcount=9 Several others both single and of the paired types on the second link are also known with filed backs... Personally, I believe both of these types are from the Laos regions inland from Hanoi...based on a Dah I have with fine provenance in identical dress to the pair in the first link...but there are years of study still to be done for both. Gavin

19th January 2016, 09:25 PM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,483	Here some other examples which show that this knife coming from the suggested region: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=yunnan http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=yunnan (special post #6) Regards, Detlef

19th January 2016, 11:22 PM	#17
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Update shortly... Gavin