Dating the Schiavons sword

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

With regards to the little hole in the upper quadrant of the pommel in some schiavonas mentioned by Jim, it seems to have been used to tie the tip of the end of the basket hilt to the pommel with some wire. I believe Ewart Oakeshott mentions in his books that he believes the holes were later additions by Victorian collectors. But in the case of Jim’s schiavona the hole in the pommel looks very old and has the same patina as the rest so looks original or at least period. I suggest the basket hilt was attached to the pommel to give extra strength and keep it straight. In a melee it might be tempting to use the basket hilt opportunistically as a knuckleduster which could cause the basket hilt to twist/rotate around the axis and eventually break. Tying it to the pommel would give some extra strength by making it less likely to twist and break.

Victrix thank you for these insightful entries! That is interesting about what Oakeshott said, do you recall which of his books this was in? He was always so informative in these kinds of minutiae which are seldom if ever noted in the other references.
I would never have imagined that kind of support use, almost a hilt 'lanyard'.
The use of the hilt in a 'knuckle duster' manner had not occurred to me, but makes sense in close quarter entanglement.

I am curious about why Victorians would add this hole, surely to add authenticity to represent this curious old tradition. This seems to fall into the category that has haunted me for years, the notched blade tips on 18th c Austrian swords.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Victrix thank you for these insightful entries! That is interesting about what Oakeshott said, do you recall which of his books this was in? He was always so informative in these kinds of minutiae which are seldom if ever noted in the other references.
I would never have imagined that kind of support use, almost a hilt 'lanyard'.
The use of the hilt in a 'knuckle duster' manner had not occurred to me, but makes sense in close quarter entanglement.

I am curious about why Victorians would add this hole, surely to add authenticity to represent this curious old tradition. This seems to fall into the category that has haunted me for years, the notched blade tips on 18th c Austrian swords.

Jim, I believe it would be unlikely that Victorian collectors drilled holes in the Schiavona pommels to tie with the basket hilt, as I see no practical purpose for this. I can’t find the source where I read this weak theory. I thought it was Ewart Oakeshott’s “European Weapons and Armour: From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution“ but although he mentions the holes he does not suggest what their purpose was. I have looked through my books in vain but haven’t been able to find where I read this. Anyway the hole in your schiavona’s pommel looks quite old which would disprove allegations that Victorian collectors drilled the holes.

Another suggestion has been that the hole was used to secure a string to tie around the wrist like a lanyard, but the holes seem too small in diameter for this purpose and there are so many other places on the hilt where a lanyard could be secured.

When holding my lattice basket hilt Schiavona the entire hand is enclosed behind steel bars and if pinned against an opponent it would be natural to use the hilt to strike if very close. The problem is that the basket hilt is secured to the sword only at the cross so there would be risk that the basket hilt got twisted in which case it would be damaged/weakened. Especially if the basket hilt was struck against hard objects like a breastplate, chainmail or a helmet. Securing the tip of the basket hilt to the pommel would keep the former straight and add some strength to the structure (assuming the wire is strong enough). This is just a theory. Otherwise it’s difficult to imagine what the purpose for the hole in the pommel would be.

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Jim, I believe it would be unlikely that Victorian collectors drilled holes in the Schiavona pommels to tie with the basket hilt, as I see no practical purpose for this. I can’t find the source where I read this weak theory. I thought it was Ewart Oakeshott’s “European Weapons and Armour: From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution“ but although he mentions the holes he does not suggest what their purpose was. I have looked through my books in vain but haven’t been able to find where I read this. Anyway the hole in your schiavona’s pommel looks quite old which would disprove allegations that Victorian collectors drilled the holes.

Another suggestion has been that the hole was used to secure a string to tie around the wrist like a lanyard, but the holes seem too small in diameter for this purpose and there are so many other places on the hilt where a lanyard could be secured.

When holding my lattice basket hilt Schiavona the entire hand is enclosed behind steel bars and if pinned against an opponent it would be natural to use the hilt to strike if very close. The problem is that the basket hilt is secured to the sword only at the cross so there would be risk that the basket hilt got twisted in which case it would be damaged/weakened. Especially if the basket hilt was struck against hard objects like a breastplate, chainmail or a helmet. Securing the tip of the basket hilt to the pommel would keep the former straight and add some strength to the structure (assuming the wire is strong enough). This is just a theory. Otherwise it’s difficult to imagine what the purpose for the hole in the pommel would be.

From the number of basket hilted swords I've seen where the guard bars aren't connected to the pommel (they just touch or sit in a shallow groove) and they have become displaced, either to one side or more often pushed downwards below the pommel, I think you're right. From practical experience with decent reenactment hilted swords, other battle and non-battle damage is just as likely.
As to a sword knot, I think it is too small and unlikely, though some contemporary accounts like Vernon's 'Young Horseman' (1644) do refer to a 'riband or the like' or 'a string' for this purpose.