Indonesian sword?

Albert · 27th September 2023, 08:06 PM

I don't recognize any similarities with Nias swords.
Although the blade looks similar to the sword in the picture in my book, it is a very common shape found in many areas.
The hilt and sheath provide no clues to Nias.

A. G. Maisey · 27th September 2023, 09:33 PM

Albert, I have already stated that this sort of thing is out of my area of interest. On the other hand , it is absolutely within your area of interest.

On this matter, you undoubtedly understand more than I do.

Additionally, my guess at "Sumatera" was based upon 3 or perhaps 4 examples of similar swords that were in the hands of finders (runners, wholesale dealers)whom I had met in Solo & Bali, it was separate professional trade dealers who provided the "Sumatera" ID. These people were not natives of either Solo or Bali, but people whose job it was to search S.E. Asia and then sell to retail dealers.

So this present post is not an invitation to enter debate, all I wish to do is to state what I believe I can see. My guess has a qualifier, ie, "similar", meaning not quite the same, but having a broad, overall character that is almost the same.

There are two characteristics of Jeff's sword that are similar to characteristics of the swords that I have seen and that were identified as having a Sumatera origin, those two characteristics are the stylized ancestor head, forward canted pommel, and the blade form. As you yourself have commented, the blade form of both these swords bears similarities to other swords spread across a wide area.

Now, if i compare the picture of the sword of Nias origin that has been reproduced from your book, with Jeff's sword, I can again see a similar stylized ancestor head pommel, & both swords are similar to this characteristic in the swords I have previously seen.

The blades of the Nias sword & Jeff's sword are not really so close in similarity, but this difference could be due to repeated sharpening of Jeff's sword:- the Nias sword is forward weighted, other than this variation, I would consider both blades quite similar.

Another similarity between Jeff's sword, the Nias sword and the swords I have previously seen is scabbard design & construction.

I have no field experience in Sumatera, thus, based upon my own direct experience I am unable to identify origin of any of the swords I have mentioned, but using only visual comparison with photos on a computer screen & the information gained from professionals in this field of antique S.E. Asian edged weapons I do believe I can see sufficient similarity in the mentioned examples to to take a tentative guess at origin.

JeffS · 28th September 2023, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert

I don't recognize any similarities with Nias swords.
Although the blade looks similar to the sword in the picture in my book, it is a very common shape found in many areas.
Thank you Albert. The hilt and sheath provide no clues to Nias.

That helps to clear that up. Are hair plugs a clue along with other features for other possible origins? Small tufts from hilt and scabbard foot.

Sajen · 28th September 2023, 06:02 AM

Hello Jeff, can you show us the hilt with some close-ups?

Regards,
Detlef

kai · 28th September 2023, 08:05 AM

A really interesting piece, Jeff!

From what I can see from the pics, it doesn't seem to have the vibes expected of pieces from Aceh and its backwaters; I can see where Alan is coming from though. Also the details of the hilt and the scabbard don't vibe with Nias as already suggested by Albert.

I'd guess we may have to look towards the eastern part of the island chain.

The blade has a fairly generic shape and seems to be village made as already suggested by Alan.

I agree with Detlef, that we need a close look on the wood carving and other details of the fittings: Could you please provide close-ups of the hilt from all 4 sides and its top? Please also post the corresponding 5 close-ups for the scabbard mouth as well as a pic of its very tip. Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 28th September 2023, 10:04 PM

Yes Kai, Aceh was a bad thought, obviously wrong. Shotgun approach.

I'm quite certain of the "Sumatera" nomination from these runners, people who did not know one another & who are professionals in their field, but the Aceh did not come from them, it was my shotgun.

Maybe Batak might be better?

I do not have many references on this sort of thing, a long time ago I had some mild interest in these various S.E. Asian sharp-pointy things, but that is ancient history, perhaps somebody might come up with some supportive evidence of somewhere.

I wonder if anybody here has read Centini? There is a passage in it where the chief characters are discussing keris, & one of them says something like "lets go to the market & learn about keris". As far as any sort of object of trade is concerned, it is the market-place that holds the answers, people who rely upon knowledge of what they sell in order to earn a living hold all the knowledge, everybody else is on the outside, just looking in through the occasional open window. If the pasar holds the knowledge, it is the finders who supply the pasar.

JeffS · 29th September 2023, 03:44 AM

Apologies for wasting people's time. When I went to clean it for detail photos I found that the upper handle/ferule is plastic (not horn as I thought) and that the black residue is not soot or dirt but some type of synthetic concoction. The blade is real but I think it is safe to assume the rest is fantasy. More tuition fees for me.

A. G. Maisey · 29th September 2023, 04:35 AM

That's a real disappointment for you Jeff, & I'm sorry to hear it.

Anyway, welcome to the club, we've all been shonked , its part of degree course.

However, when a piece of fakedakery like this appears on the scene, we usually have seen or will see others the same, or close to to it. Speaking for myself only, I have not seen a plastic hilt anything like this one of yours --- & I very regulary see a lot of various examples of fake antique weaponry.

27th September 2023, 08:06 PM	#1
Albert Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 191	I don't recognize any similarities with Nias swords. Although the blade looks similar to the sword in the picture in my book, it is a very common shape found in many areas. The hilt and sheath provide no clues to Nias.

27th September 2023, 09:33 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,731	Albert, I have already stated that this sort of thing is out of my area of interest. On the other hand , it is absolutely within your area of interest. On this matter, you undoubtedly understand more than I do. Additionally, my guess at "Sumatera" was based upon 3 or perhaps 4 examples of similar swords that were in the hands of finders (runners, wholesale dealers)whom I had met in Solo & Bali, it was separate professional trade dealers who provided the "Sumatera" ID. These people were not natives of either Solo or Bali, but people whose job it was to search S.E. Asia and then sell to retail dealers. So this present post is not an invitation to enter debate, all I wish to do is to state what I believe I can see. My guess has a qualifier, ie, "similar", meaning not quite the same, but having a broad, overall character that is almost the same. There are two characteristics of Jeff's sword that are similar to characteristics of the swords that I have seen and that were identified as having a Sumatera origin, those two characteristics are the stylized ancestor head, forward canted pommel, and the blade form. As you yourself have commented, the blade form of both these swords bears similarities to other swords spread across a wide area. Now, if i compare the picture of the sword of Nias origin that has been reproduced from your book, with Jeff's sword, I can again see a similar stylized ancestor head pommel, & both swords are similar to this characteristic in the swords I have previously seen. The blades of the Nias sword & Jeff's sword are not really so close in similarity, but this difference could be due to repeated sharpening of Jeff's sword:- the Nias sword is forward weighted, other than this variation, I would consider both blades quite similar. Another similarity between Jeff's sword, the Nias sword and the swords I have previously seen is scabbard design & construction. I have no field experience in Sumatera, thus, based upon my own direct experience I am unable to identify origin of any of the swords I have mentioned, but using only visual comparison with photos on a computer screen & the information gained from professionals in this field of antique S.E. Asian edged weapons I do believe I can see sufficient similarity in the mentioned examples to to take a tentative guess at origin.

28th September 2023, 06:02 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,558	Hello Jeff, can you show us the hilt with some close-ups? Regards, Detlef

28th September 2023, 08:05 AM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,221	A really interesting piece, Jeff! From what I can see from the pics, it doesn't seem to have the vibes expected of pieces from Aceh and its backwaters; I can see where Alan is coming from though. Also the details of the hilt and the scabbard don't vibe with Nias as already suggested by Albert. I'd guess we may have to look towards the eastern part of the island chain. The blade has a fairly generic shape and seems to be village made as already suggested by Alan. I agree with Detlef, that we need a close look on the wood carving and other details of the fittings: Could you please provide close-ups of the hilt from all 4 sides and its top? Please also post the corresponding 5 close-ups for the scabbard mouth as well as a pic of its very tip. Thanks! Regards, Kai

28th September 2023, 10:04 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,731	Yes Kai, Aceh was a bad thought, obviously wrong. Shotgun approach. I'm quite certain of the "Sumatera" nomination from these runners, people who did not know one another & who are professionals in their field, but the Aceh did not come from them, it was my shotgun. Maybe Batak might be better? I do not have many references on this sort of thing, a long time ago I had some mild interest in these various S.E. Asian sharp-pointy things, but that is ancient history, perhaps somebody might come up with some supportive evidence of somewhere. I wonder if anybody here has read Centini? There is a passage in it where the chief characters are discussing keris, & one of them says something like "lets go to the market & learn about keris". As far as any sort of object of trade is concerned, it is the market-place that holds the answers, people who rely upon knowledge of what they sell in order to earn a living hold all the knowledge, everybody else is on the outside, just looking in through the occasional open window. If the pasar holds the knowledge, it is the finders who supply the pasar.

29th September 2023, 03:44 AM	#7
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 308	Apologies for wasting people's time. When I went to clean it for detail photos I found that the upper handle/ferule is plastic (not horn as I thought) and that the black residue is not soot or dirt but some type of synthetic concoction. The blade is real but I think it is safe to assume the rest is fantasy. More tuition fees for me.

29th September 2023, 04:35 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,731	That's a real disappointment for you Jeff, & I'm sorry to hear it. Anyway, welcome to the club, we've all been shonked , its part of degree course. However, when a piece of fakedakery like this appears on the scene, we usually have seen or will see others the same, or close to to it. Speaking for myself only, I have not seen a plastic hilt anything like this one of yours --- & I very regulary see a lot of various examples of fake antique weaponry.