Indonesian spear with brass blade

[milandro]

interesting, this is really brass, not bronze, so its function and purpose must have been absolutely ceremonial (if not decorative) because if bronze can actually be used as a true weapon, brass hasn't got the same hardness.

Indonesia has well known bronze ceremonial axes, I don't know if this tradition has, at some point, given origin to something like your tombak (funny enough the word tombak derived from Tembaga also means a brass alloy....)


I see on line (for sale) brass " spears" very different from yours apparently classified as Majapahit period and I see Balinese Brass spears (also very different from yours).


I have seen brass recongs made in Atjeh and this being a very famous place where they mande all manners of weapons may be a more or less educated guess

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually, the word "tombak" came into Malay & also probably Kawi, thence Old Javanese, from the Sanscrit "tamra" = "copper".

There are many ways in which "tamra" can be understood in Sanscrit, & the idea of "copper" does not only apply to the metal.

For example, in the Puranas "tamra" is a reference to the lingga of Aditya (present day usage, arc. "Adityas"), which is synonymous with Surya, the Sun.

The spelling "tombak" is Malay & BI, the Javanese spelling is "tumbak".

The word "tembaga" is clearly from the same Sanscrit root word.

Separate derivations from the same root, but probably not from the same understanding of that root.

In the Early Classical Period of Jawa, bronze weapons were probably used in blood sacrifice, as they were in India, notably in the Horse Sacrifice. I have a relatively recent Javanese brass keris, & I have seen & handled archaic bronze Javanese blades.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually, the word "tombak" came into Malay & also probably Kawi, thence Old Javanese, from the Sanscrit "tamra" = "copper".

There are many ways in which "tamra" can be understood in Sanscrit, & the idea of "copper" does not only apply to the metal.

For example, in the Puranas "tamra" is a reference to the lingga of Aditya (present day usage, arc. "Adityas"), which is synonymous with Surya, the Sun.

The spelling "tombak" is Malay & BI, the Javanese spelling is "tumbak".

The word "tembaga" is clearly from the same Sanscrit root word.

Separate derivations from the same root, but probably not from the same understanding of that root.

In the Early Classical Period of Jawa, bronze weapons were probably used in blood sacrifice, as they were in India, notably in the Horse Sacrifice. I have a relatively recent Javanese brass keris, & I have seen & handled archaic bronze Javanese blades.

Hi Alan,

Thank you for your explanation! Am I correct that the tomak isn't Javanese?

Regards,
Detlef

[chmorshuutz]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually, the word "tombak" came into Malay & also probably Kawi, thence Old Javanese, from the Sanscrit "tamra" = "copper".

There are many ways in which "tamra" can be understood in Sanscrit, & the idea of "copper" does not only apply to the metal.

For example, in the Puranas "tamra" is a reference to the lingga of Aditya (present day usage, arc. "Adityas"), which is synonymous with Surya, the Sun.

The spelling "tombak" is Malay & BI, the Javanese spelling is "tumbak".

The word "tembaga" is clearly from the same Sanscrit root word.

Separate derivations from the same root, but probably not from the same understanding of that root.

In the Early Classical Period of Jawa, bronze weapons were probably used in blood sacrifice, as they were in India, notably in the Horse Sacrifice. I have a relatively recent Javanese brass keris, & I have seen & handled archaic bronze Javanese blades.

Interesting, Tagalog also has this term "tumbaga" in old dictionaries, referring to copper, can also be used for mix of gold and copper.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by chmorshuutz

Interesting, Tagalog also has this term "tumbaga" in old dictionaries, referring to copper, can also be used for mix of gold and copper.

No great wonder, Tagalog is a Malay language!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by milandro

interesting, this is really brass, not bronze, so its function and purpose must have been absolutely ceremonial (if not decorative) because if bronze can actually be used as a true weapon, brass hasn't got the same hardness.

Indonesia has well known bronze ceremonial axes, I don't know if this tradition has, at some point, given origin to something like your tombak (funny enough the word tombak derived from Tembaga also means a brass alloy....)


I see on line (for sale) brass " spears" very different from yours apparently classified as Majapahit period and I see Balinese Brass spears (also very different from yours).


I have seen brass recongs made in Atjeh and this being a very famous place where they mande all manners of weapons may be a more or less educated guess

I guess it's bronze and not brass, you're correct, brass would be too "soft"!

Regards,
Detlef

[milandro]

except it doesn't really look like bronze but more brass

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by milandro

except it doesn't really look like bronze but more brass

The seller has cleaned the spear point because he thought it's from iron and was very surprised that it isn't! But I don't have any experience of what polished bronze looks like!?

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

A short google research for polished bronze!

A work of art inside the council of Europe in Strasbourg.

[A. G. Maisey]

Comparative hardness of bronze & brass depends upon the alloys used, however, as a general guide, brass tests at Rockwell 55, bronze at Rockwell 42

The Javanese spelling of "tombak" is "tumbak", it is the same word with the same meaning, but one of the vowels has been Romanised in a different way.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Comparative hardness of bronze & brass depends upon the alloys used, however, as a general guide, brass tests at Rockwell 55, bronze at Rockwell 42

The Javanese spelling of "tombak" is "tumbak", it is the same word with the same meaning, but one of the vowels has been Romanised in a different way.

My question was probably worded incorrectly, I meant whether the tombak/tumbak that started this thread is Javanese? I doubt this!

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

I do not know with any certainty, but overall, it does not feel Javanese.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Comparative hardness of bronze & brass depends upon the alloys used, however, as a general guide, brass tests at Rockwell 55, bronze at Rockwell 42

Alan thank you. That's been my experience that bronze is softer than brass, and brass is more brittle than bronze. That's why you see more bronze cannons vs brass ones for centuries.

I wonder if the use of brass is similar for Indonesians as it is for Philippine weapons - talismanic and for warding off evil spirits.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by Battara

Alan thank you. That's been my experience that bronze is softer than brass, and brass is more brittle than bronze. That's why you see more bronze cannons vs brass ones for centuries.

Quite the opposite

Bronze is harder than brass and more brittle than brass.


https://www.thinmetalsales.com/blog/...jects%20better.


"....There isn’t a particular advantage to using brass or bronze. It depends on the project you’re undertaking. Bronze is harder and therefore has often been used on ships and fittings. However, it’s more brittle. Brass is more malleable, on the other hand, and more easily manipulated, which is why it serves as decorative projects better. ...."



Bronze spears are of course " common" in the classic world and one can certainly make a usable and very sharp bronze weapon

see this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAFz7UeVm4E


apparently in the Javanese bronze era there were, along with the aforementioned bronze axes, also bronze spears

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...q&opi=89978449


"....During the Japanese occupation W. Rothpletz found on the Plateau of Bandung in Java a large number of fragments of clay moulds for axes, spear-heads and bracelets, which prove that in Proto-Historic times such objects were actually manufactured in the locality and were not imported from abroad, as is often believed...."


this is a GREEK bronze spear at the Metropolitan museum