Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 23rd January 2020, 06:47 PM   #1
Lansquenet59
Member
 
Lansquenet59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: France
Posts: 23
Default Lobster tailed helmet circa 1640

Hello,

Here is my lobster tailed helmet, cavalry helmet in Europe around 1640-1660. It is the best known model, I think German, many of these helmets were kept in arsenals from what I had heard. Anyone have an idea about the manufacturer? "L"
Attached Images
          
Lansquenet59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 11:59 AM   #2
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,712
Default

This is a fine example indeed, Thomas. I wish knowledged members came in to comment on it. It looks like the "L" mark doesn't appear in basic marks books, where we see that armour smith marks are usually more elaborated.
By the way, have you tried the 'Search' button, to check in our archives the various threads on the lobster tail helmet ? Lots of material over there.


.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 01:17 PM   #3
Lansquenet59
Member
 
Lansquenet59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: France
Posts: 23
Default

Thank you Fernando, yes I saw that there are several similar helmets here on the forum. But for the moment nothing for this marking. I have already seen the same models with an "M". But I don't know any more. If other members have more information, I'm interested!
Lansquenet59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 03:22 PM   #4
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 354
Default

I always thought those letters stamped on the nasal guard were arsenal marks, but I could be wrong.

Here’s a link for a publication on European helmets published by the Met: http://resources.metmuseum.org/reso..._Collection.pdf

Also amazing pictures of a Zischägge (officer version) with lining intact.
Attached Images
  
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 04:12 PM   #5
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,712
Default

Excelent link to the Met publication, Victrix. Thanks much for sharing .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 04:47 PM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,712
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix
...I always thought those letters stamped on the nasal guard were arsenal marks, but I could be wrong...

Yes, probably some code letter to deal with production inside the arsenal or workshop, assembly lot or the like, but not an actual origin mark to be recognized on the "market".
BTW, isn't that a letter (M?) in the nasal of the impecable example you are posting ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2020, 04:57 PM   #7
Lansquenet59
Member
 
Lansquenet59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: France
Posts: 23
Default

Impressive this model of officer! Thanks for the link, very interesting.
Amazing to see this helmet with its headdress.
Lansquenet59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2020, 12:48 PM   #8
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 354
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Yes, probably some code letter to deal with production inside the arsenal or workshop, assembly lot or the like, but not an actual origin mark to be recognized on the "market".
BTW, isn't that a letter (M?) in the nasal of the impecable example you are posting ?


Either that or a W, depending on the point of view. Thinking about it, I have seen these letters mostly on the simpler munitions grade Zischäggen. Some of the higher quality decorated ones have maker’s or guild marks but nasal bars are not marked with these letters. Maybe some armourers specialized in nasal bar production and this relatively simple item could have been outsourced in mass production supply chains.
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2020, 10:00 PM   #9
adrian
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 46
Default

I have another Lobster Pot exactly the same as the one that is the subject of this thread, also marked with the L. It was acquired by my uncle many decades ago at an auction of a farm's contents near Cambridge in England.
I'd be most interested to learn if these were all actually made in Germanic states or if many were in fact made in England & who that L represents.
Attached Images
      
adrian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th January 2020, 01:13 PM   #10
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,712
Default

Expanding on Victrix post #8, if i may, the letter M (or W) being similar to the initially introduced letter L, would in principle indicate a German origin for these helmets. I wouldn't know how Cromwell equipped his cavalry but he might as well have imported some of these for his Civil War struggle ... or would have been the Royal forces; thus its showing up in England.
As previously discussed in other threads, i would say more than once, this type of lettering, as well as marks like punched dots or filed lines, are among those applied in mass production workshops to assemble the different parts; or any other sign or meaning that not smiths signatures. Not wishing to switch on the complicometer, we may recall an article by master armourer Chris Dobson in that he classifies 'marks' as been those of Forging, Constructional, Batch, Signatures, Workshop, View, Arsenal and Size.
And by the way, the letter M (or L) does not only appear in nasals but also on the front cap, as in Adrian's example. And do i see it punched in both those places in Thomas helmet ?.

I wish Dirk came in on this one, so that we hear what he says about it.


.


.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by fernando : 27th January 2020 at 01:25 PM.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th January 2020, 08:22 AM   #11
Lansquenet59
Member
 
Lansquenet59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: France
Posts: 23
Default

Yes I think that too. Indeed, on mine, we find this letter in two places.
Lansquenet59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:38 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.