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Old 6th January 2020, 06:38 PM   #1
MichaelZWilliamson
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Default Is this a Persian Kard?

Local store has this and I'm interested. Best photos I could get with a cell phone. The blade is either actual wootz or a very high quality pattern weld.
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Old 6th January 2020, 08:35 PM   #2
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Ottoman.
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Old 6th January 2020, 08:51 PM   #3
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Please send me the address of your local store!!
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Old 6th January 2020, 09:02 PM   #4
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Thanks. Can you refine it any? I'm guessing prior to 1900.
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Old 7th January 2020, 09:29 AM   #5
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Yes, a classical Ottoman Kard and 19th Century. The handle is likely jade and the blade is wootz. The silver scabbard also has all elements of classical Ottoman design, the repose style, 'rings' near the opening and the dragon/fish finial. A nice Kard.
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Old 7th January 2020, 10:51 AM   #6
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As it was said before, in my oppinion too, it is 19th century Ottoman, most likely Turkish Kard.

Better photos should help to identify if it is wootz.
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Old 9th January 2020, 12:02 AM   #7
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Vendor is getting a professional appraisal. If it's outside my price range, I've told them I'll let people know, so you can descend upon them.
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Old 9th January 2020, 09:16 PM   #8
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Excellent Ottoman kard.Congratulations
In regard to the silver scabbard, I have some doubts that it is from another set.If the knife comes in without difficulty and stands tight then everything is ok.
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Old 9th January 2020, 10:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OsobistGB
Excellent Ottoman kard.Congratulations
In regard to the silver scabbard, I have some doubts that it is from another set.If the knife comes in without difficulty and stands tight then everything is ok.


I agree but even better show us a photo of the knife in the scabbard
According to some members it will be Greek but i think it's a Turkish bishaq...
A kard is Persian....
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Old 10th January 2020, 01:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OsobistGB
Excellent Ottoman kard.Congratulations
In regard to the silver scabbard, I have some doubts that it is from another set.If the knife comes in without difficulty and stands tight then everything is ok.


I agree with OsobistGB
Greek scabbard (Crete). Card with a strong Persian influence.

Согласен с OsobistGB
Ножны греческие (Крит). Кард с сильным персидским влиянием.
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Old 10th January 2020, 03:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OsobistGB
Excellent Ottoman kard.Congratulations
In regard to the silver scabbard, I have some doubts that it is from another set.If the knife comes in without difficulty and stands tight then everything is ok.


It fits perfectly.
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Old 15th January 2020, 03:09 AM   #12
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Better pics of the metal tomorrow.

Last edited by Ian : 15th January 2020 at 06:17 AM. Reason: Prices are not discussed here
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Old 15th January 2020, 10:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelZWilliamson
It fits perfectly.


I see your point. However, it does not prove its originality. Scabbards were the first thing to go due to the fragility of their wooden core, and were replaced at intervals during working life of any bladed weapon. Shaping a new scabbard for the blade did not differ from making an original one. Silver cladding might have been original or new because thin silver was also damaged as part of its exposure to the rigors of daily life. As a matter of fact, a perfectly intact scabbard of an obviously old bladed weapon ( like yours) suggests replacement, IMHO, or careful storage ( museum-like conditions) from the moment of its birth.
You got yourself a very good and fully genuine Kard, it is unquestionably authentic, but full originality of its composing parts cannot be proven. It is not a defect but just an inevitable consequence of its age and active usage.
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Old 15th January 2020, 01:16 PM   #14
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Sorry: double posting

Last edited by Battara : 15th January 2020 at 04:49 PM. Reason: double
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Old 15th January 2020, 07:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I see your point. However, it does not prove its originality. Scabbards were the first thing to go due to the fragility of their wooden core, and were replaced at intervals during working life of any bladed weapon.


I agree and understand. It could have been made to fit. Kukri get replacement scabbards from time to time, and I've replaced scabbards for several skean dhus in my shop. But even if a replacement, it is correct for the piece as far as fit. Though its style may not be an exact match.
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Old 15th January 2020, 07:21 PM   #16
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They considered my offer over the weekend and I picked it up yesterday.
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Old 15th January 2020, 07:21 PM   #17
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mariusgmioc, I can't reply until you clear out your inbox.
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Old 15th January 2020, 07:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelZWilliamson
They considered my offer over the weekend and I picked it up yesterday.



Congratulations!
Very nice catch.
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Old 15th January 2020, 07:53 PM   #19
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Hopefully better pictures of the blade grain and scabbard.
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Old 16th January 2020, 04:38 PM   #20
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Thank you for the additional photos!

True inndeed that it would be almost impossible to know with certainty whether the scabbard is the original or a replacemement.
Yet, considering the style and condition of both the knife and the scabbard, I tend to believe the sabbard is the original.

Moreover, as I stated earlier, I believe it to be Turkish, not Greek or Balkan, but this is debatable since styles and skills travelled well within the Ottoman Empire.
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Old 16th January 2020, 05:00 PM   #21
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Thanks for the info. I'm trying to get a translation of the script.
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Old 17th January 2020, 07:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelZWilliamson
Thanks for the info. I'm trying to get a translation of the script.


Can you also please post better photos of the hilt, including one close-up of the tip of the hilt?

I am asking because it would be possible the hilt to be of onyx, which is widely found in Anatolia.
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Old 18th January 2020, 03:42 PM   #23
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Also, if you post close-ups of the inscriptions I may be able to help. At the moment it's too low resolution for me to read
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Old 18th January 2020, 04:19 PM   #24
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Here's some pics of the hilt. I'll try to zoom in more on the inscription.
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Old 18th January 2020, 04:56 PM   #25
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Here's a link to higher resolution of the script. I can't upload sufficient resolution with the site's limits.

https://www.sharppointythings.com/p...f11aa618-la.jpg
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Old 18th January 2020, 06:54 PM   #26
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This is in Persian, but the calligraphy looks more typical of Ottoman metalwork:

بکش خنجر که جان بهر تو [ا]ی نامهربان دارم

'Draw the dagger, since my life is at your disposal, O unkind one!'

The imagery is typical of the Ottoman and Persian poetic traditions, where the poet emphasises his devotion to a cruel beloved, even asking to be killed in order to demonstrate his devotion.
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Old 18th January 2020, 07:01 PM   #27
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I should add, I found it online as a verse attributed to the poet Lotfi Shirazi, who was active in the reign of Shah 'Abbas
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Old 18th January 2020, 07:12 PM   #28
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Thank you very much, kwiatek. That's an interesting piece of information about it.
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Old 18th January 2020, 08:45 PM   #29
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Thank you for the photos!

The hilt can be either jade (nephrite or jadeite) or onyx. Cannot say.

From the photo with the text (the one from the link you provided), one can clearly see that it is not antique wootz.

So it is either some faux-wootz (done by pattern etching) or some modern version of "wootz."

The koftgari also looks very fresh...

It would be interesting to hear what others have to say about this.


Last edited by mariusgmioc : 18th January 2020 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 18th January 2020, 09:13 PM   #30
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I dont see any wootz at all - sorry.
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