Markings or Decorations on Mexican Swords

Matt Branch · 23rd March 2007, 12:59 AM

Here is another reply to one of my e-mails, another confirmation of Jim's thoughts. There are 2 more curators that have said they will look into their collections when the have time.

Research Results:

From the pictures your family’s sword looks like a very interesting piece. Unfortunately, I do not think that we have much to add to the information that has already been posted on www.vikingswords.com, since your particular sword is outside of our main area of expertise (our concentration centers mostly around Medieval and Renaissance arms and armor). The closest item we have in our collection is an Ames 1833 pattern, which has already been mentioned on the thread. Our research materials contain a few images of hilts in the same general style, which seems to have been a popular one, but I could not find any exact matches. The hilt on the 1822 (pattern British infantry officer’s sword is quite similar, as are several German hilts from half a century later. From what I read, Jim McDougall has access to better material concerning the blade then I do, and his theories do sound plausible. I wish you the best of luck in your research. I know that this is an area not well covered in the standard sources, but your sword is special enough that you can hopefully find some further leads to its origin.
Jonathan Reynolds
Curatorial Intern

Also I found a small statue that is similar to the eagle on my sword on this site
http://www.mosthistory.org/Gallery
Its the 4th image, kind of small but it is perched on the cactus, I can't see if the names of the Mexican states are written on the cactus as they are on the Disternell Treaty Map, And the wing tips do point down which again is not common in Mexican eagles used as symbols.
(I hope you can click on the link.) I have not heard back from them.
anyway I am still searching.
Regards
Matt

Matt Branch · 24th March 2007, 01:06 AM

Mr Miller offered this information and a photo of a Mexican flag with the same style of eagle as the one on my sword, This is the first flag I have seen where the eagle's wing tips point down.

Hello Matt,

I looked at the website and read the interesting discussions about your
sword. As for the eagle decoration, it was the symbol on the coat of arms of
Mexico from 1823 to 1863. Attached is a picture of a flag captured by U.S.
forces during the Mexican War. The Eagle and Serpent is actually the symbol
of Mexico City. Legend has it that the gods told the Aztecs the place where
they should establish their city would be identified when they saw an eagle,
perched on a prickly pear cactus, devouring a serpent. Apparently they saw
this eagle where the Plaza of Mexico City now stands. You can see the
prickly pear clearly in the image from the Disturnell map. The coat of arms
was used on the flag and many official government documents. It also served
as a decoration for fine swords, and as a government stamp on the lockplates
of Mexican military firearms.

Many soldiers on both sides of the Civil War served previously in the
Mexican War; Grant and Lee are the most prominent. It's very likely the
Confederate soldier or his father captured the sword and was in turn,
captured by your great great grandfather. I know the frustration of
researching Mexican weapons, but believe you and your corespondents are
correct in attributing the sword to Peter D. Luneschloss.

I hope this answers your questions.

Sincerely,

David Miller
Associate Curator
Military History & Diplomacy

23rd March 2007, 12:59 AM	#1
Matt Branch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 36	Another reply Here is another reply to one of my e-mails, another confirmation of Jim's thoughts. There are 2 more curators that have said they will look into their collections when the have time. Research Results: From the pictures your family’s sword looks like a very interesting piece. Unfortunately, I do not think that we have much to add to the information that has already been posted on www.vikingswords.com, since your particular sword is outside of our main area of expertise (our concentration centers mostly around Medieval and Renaissance arms and armor). The closest item we have in our collection is an Ames 1833 pattern, which has already been mentioned on the thread. Our research materials contain a few images of hilts in the same general style, which seems to have been a popular one, but I could not find any exact matches. The hilt on the 1822 (pattern British infantry officer’s sword is quite similar, as are several German hilts from half a century later. From what I read, Jim McDougall has access to better material concerning the blade then I do, and his theories do sound plausible. I wish you the best of luck in your research. I know that this is an area not well covered in the standard sources, but your sword is special enough that you can hopefully find some further leads to its origin. Jonathan Reynolds Curatorial Intern Also I found a small statue that is similar to the eagle on my sword on this site http://www.mosthistory.org/Gallery Its the 4th image, kind of small but it is perched on the cactus, I can't see if the names of the Mexican states are written on the cactus as they are on the Disternell Treaty Map, And the wing tips do point down which again is not common in Mexican eagles used as symbols. (I hope you can click on the link.) I have not heard back from them. anyway I am still searching. Regards Matt

24th March 2007, 01:06 AM	#2
Matt Branch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 36	National Museum of America Mr Miller offered this information and a photo of a Mexican flag with the same style of eagle as the one on my sword, This is the first flag I have seen where the eagle's wing tips point down. Hello Matt, I looked at the website and read the interesting discussions about your sword. As for the eagle decoration, it was the symbol on the coat of arms of Mexico from 1823 to 1863. Attached is a picture of a flag captured by U.S. forces during the Mexican War. The Eagle and Serpent is actually the symbol of Mexico City. Legend has it that the gods told the Aztecs the place where they should establish their city would be identified when they saw an eagle, perched on a prickly pear cactus, devouring a serpent. Apparently they saw this eagle where the Plaza of Mexico City now stands. You can see the prickly pear clearly in the image from the Disturnell map. The coat of arms was used on the flag and many official government documents. It also served as a decoration for fine swords, and as a government stamp on the lockplates of Mexican military firearms. Many soldiers on both sides of the Civil War served previously in the Mexican War; Grant and Lee are the most prominent. It's very likely the Confederate soldier or his father captured the sword and was in turn, captured by your great great grandfather. I know the frustration of researching Mexican weapons, but believe you and your corespondents are correct in attributing the sword to Peter D. Luneschloss. I hope this answers your questions. Sincerely, David Miller Associate Curator Military History & Diplomacy Attached Images