Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 5th June 2019, 04:27 PM   #1
Loedjoe
Member
 
Loedjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Oxford (UK)
Posts: 96
Default A bronze Keris hilt - help needed to identify figure etc.

Bronze keris hilt, perhaps Javanese? 8 cm. Does it depict a priest or deity?
The right hand pointing upwards, resembling the Buddhistic 'Gesture of Protection' (abhaya). The left hand pointing downwards in a similar gesture; an elephant depicted at the base, on the front.
Any information from some of the many experts on the Forum would be welcome.
Attached Images
     
Loedjoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th June 2019, 06:43 PM   #2
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,213
Default

Hello Tim,

that's an unusual piece - certainly looks like a keris hilt!

Could you please post pics from all sides for a better appraisal?

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2019, 09:20 AM   #3
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
Default

I have no clue but it looks a very old and rare piece and probably javanese indeed.
Congratulations and best regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2019, 12:48 PM   #4
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,675
Default

I also cannot assist Tim, however, even though this hand position does resemble one or more Buddhist hand positions, I suspect it could be that to attach this hilt to a Buddhist relationship + a keris relationship might be the wrong way to go.

I have never seen representations of keris, nor of keris-like objects in a Buddhist setting, and since the keris is a symbol of Siwa, this is totally understandable.

So, if we opt for a Buddhist relationship we probably should remove the keris from the equation. Some other type of weapon, or even object, but not a keris.

Similarly, if we opt for a keris relationship maybe Buddha has got to leave the room.

We have an elephant + some other animal. Do we know what the other animal is?

If we were to understand the hand position as a Hindu, what might we be looking at?
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2019, 08:59 PM   #5
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
Default

The face rather looks like a Hindu demon with bulging eyes than a Buddhist figure.
Regards

Last edited by Jean; 8th June 2019 at 02:07 PM.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2019, 10:31 PM   #6
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,675
Default

Are fangs visible?

Even very small rudimentary ones would do, but unless we have those we cannot begin to think "raksasa".
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2019, 01:32 AM   #7
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Smile

It would be nice to see this object photographed perhaps in open shade sunlight and a bit sharper, perhaps a view from the back also.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2019, 02:08 PM   #8
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Are fangs visible?

Even very small rudimentary ones would do, but unless we have those we cannot begin to think "raksasa".
Thank you, corrected.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2019, 09:59 PM   #9
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,675
Default

Maybe there are fangs there Jean, I just cannot see the detail of this hilt well enough on my screen to know with certainty.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2019, 10:31 PM   #10
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,213
Default

Tim asked me to extend thanks to all who responded!

He seems to have problems with logging in and I hope he'll be back soon.

I'm adding a few more pics he send me for posting; Tim will try to take some more.

Regards,
Kai
Attached Images
    
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2019, 12:44 AM   #11
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Default

I'm getting the impression from the images that Kai has posted that there is a Tumpal Throne involved here.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2019, 08:54 AM   #12
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,213
Post

Yes, Rick, some of the tumpal motifs have been preserved in this design.

There also seems to be a garuda mungkur at the back of the head.

I'm fairly sure there are fangs - we need sharper pics for verification though.

There seem to be 2 elephants depicted at the front.

The hilt sure does seem to have some age despite metal castings being notoriously difficult to appraise. However, I don't see any of the common motifs/details of very early carved hilts and suspect this piece is later work.

Tim, any resin (or wood) inside the hilt?

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2019, 01:51 PM   #13
Marcokeris
Member
 
Marcokeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Yes, Rick, some of the tumpal motifs have been preserved in this design.

There also seems to be a garuda mungkur at the back of the head.

I'm fairly sure there are fangs - we need sharper pics for verification though.

There seem to be 2 elephants depicted at the front.

The hilt sure does seem to have some age despite metal castings being notoriously difficult to appraise. However, I don't see any of the common motifs/details of very early carved hilts and suspect this piece is later work.

Tim, any resin (or wood) inside the hilt?

Regards,
Kai
I agree..... Interesting handle and I think it could be old
Marcokeris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2019, 07:18 PM   #14
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
Default

I notice that the pesi hole is very wide, any missing materials inside?
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th July 2019, 06:11 AM   #15
Bjorn
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 188
Default

It seems the question of the mudra was never resolved.
From the photos - and perhaps on item-in-hand as well - it's difficult to see the exact positioning of the fingers.
As fas as I can tell, the middle and ring fingers are extended.
The thumb is visible, though I can't see what the index finger is doing.
And the pinkie seems a little strange to me. It gives the appearance of being bent (due to the thickening of the material), but going by length that doesn't make sense.

Of course it could be that the casting was imperfect. Perhaps only 4 fingers were cast. Perhaps the design of the mudra was not carefully considered by the maker.
Bjorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.