Pitch

harrywagner · 6th October 2015, 05:17 PM

I am curious about the use of pitch for securing blades to hilts. I have seen more than a few Jambiyas like this and have always been suspicious of them. I would be surprised if readers here have not seen the same themselves, but if not, please let me know and I will post some photos. What I would like to know is:

1. Is this a common and acceptable practice in the ME, or a shortcut?
2. When did knife makers start using pitch?
3. And most importantly, what does the use of pitch do to the desirability and value of a piece?

I hope I won't get in trouble for asking #3. I am not looking for any specifics, just an indication of what effect this practice has on an item's value and how experienced collectors view this practive. Thanks you.

Harry

harrywagner · 6th October 2015, 06:33 PM

Here is an example of what I am talking about. I find it diccifult to believe that the artist who made this knife, in all it's detail, would mount the blade like this. Personally, I think any Islamic weapon you find with a "pitch mount" is a weapon that has a replaced, or repaired, blade. I hope I am wrong about this.

Harry

kahnjar1 · 6th October 2015, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

I am curious about the use of pitch for securing blades to hilts. I have seen more than a few Jambiyas like this and have always been suspicious of them. I would be surprised if readers here have not seen the same themselves, but if not, please let me know and I will post some photos. What I would like to know is:

1. Is this a common and acceptable practice in the ME, or a shortcut?
2. When did knife makers start using pitch?
3. And most importantly, what does the use of pitch do to the desirability and value of a piece?

I hope I won't get in trouble for asking #3. I am not looking for any specifics, just an indication of what effect this practice has on an item's value and how experienced collectors view this practive. Thanks you.

Harry

Hi Harry,
Answer to #1 is yes and no. Most, if not all of my jambiya blades, including the very few late 19thc and early 20thc items I have, are mounted in this way, and "no" I do not believe it is a "shortcut".
Cannot help with #2.
#3....no of course it does not reduce the desirability or value of the piece. It is how it was made in the first place by the craftsman who did the job.
When you receive the book you have on order ("Jambiya from the Ancient Souls of Yemen") you will see on page 180 that the method of fixing blade to hilt is by "resin/wax mixture".....in other words pitch, or the local version of it.
Hope this helps
Stu

harrywagner · 6th October 2015, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Harry,
Answer to #1 is yes and no. Most, if not all of my jambiya blades, including the very few late 19thc and early 20thc items I have, are mounted in this way, and "no" I do not believe it is a "shortcut".
Cannot help with #2.
#3....no of course it does not reduce the desirability or value of the piece. It is how it was made in the first place by the craftsman who did the job.
When you receive the book you have on order ("Jambiya from the Ancient Souls of Yemen") you will see on page 180 that the method of fixing blade to hilt is by "resin/wax mixture".....in other words pitch, or the local version of it.
Hope this helps
Stu

Thanks Stu,
I have passed on buying several Jambiyas I would have liked to have, but did not trust due to the blade being set with pitch. I am anxious to see what that book says, and what other collectors think. I am glad I have asked this question. I wish I had asked it about two years ago when I got started.

Harry

Battara · 7th October 2015, 02:00 AM

Not only jambiyas but other pieces from different parts of the world also use pitch. A hard sticky yet easy material to use.

Rick · 7th October 2015, 03:11 AM

Most Indian swords .

estcrh · 7th October 2015, 03:20 AM

I have read that a substance called "lac" was used in securing sword hilts, the lac insect secretes a sticky, resinous material called lac which is collected and used for many types of art work etc.

A quote from Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India By E. Jaiwant. Paul

Shakethetrees · 7th October 2015, 03:42 AM

Any grip that does not have a peened tang showing through the pommel, or a cover that obscures the peened button, OR has transverse pins or rivets has pitch or a similar substance.

Pitch has been used probably for millennia. There is evidence of it found in weapons going back a thousand years. In the European forum I remember Matchlock mentioning this in ref. to some of his weapons going back to c. 1200 AD.

As far as devaluing a weapon, does the pitch look old and distressed or was it amateurishly added? If it is still a weapon with known pitch use and falls within the aesthetically acceptable look, I wouldn't worry.

7th October 2015, 03:20 AM	#7
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	I have read that a substance called "lac" was used in securing sword hilts, the lac insect secretes a sticky, resinous material called lac which is collected and used for many types of art work etc. A quote from Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India By E. Jaiwant. Paul Attached Images

6th October 2015, 05:17 PM	#1
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Pitch I am curious about the use of pitch for securing blades to hilts. I have seen more than a few Jambiyas like this and have always been suspicious of them. I would be surprised if readers here have not seen the same themselves, but if not, please let me know and I will post some photos. What I would like to know is: 1. Is this a common and acceptable practice in the ME, or a shortcut? 2. When did knife makers start using pitch? 3. And most importantly, what does the use of pitch do to the desirability and value of a piece? I hope I won't get in trouble for asking #3. I am not looking for any specifics, just an indication of what effect this practice has on an item's value and how experienced collectors view this practive. Thanks you. Harry

6th October 2015, 06:33 PM	#2
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Jambiya blade mounted with pitch Here is an example of what I am talking about. I find it diccifult to believe that the artist who made this knife, in all it's detail, would mount the blade like this. Personally, I think any Islamic weapon you find with a "pitch mount" is a weapon that has a replaced, or repaired, blade. I hope I am wrong about this. Harry Attached Images

7th October 2015, 02:00 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Not only jambiyas but other pieces from different parts of the world also use pitch. A hard sticky yet easy material to use.

7th October 2015, 03:11 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	Most Indian swords .

7th October 2015, 03:42 AM	#8
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Any grip that does not have a peened tang showing through the pommel, or a cover that obscures the peened button, OR has transverse pins or rivets has pitch or a similar substance. Pitch has been used probably for millennia. There is evidence of it found in weapons going back a thousand years. In the European forum I remember Matchlock mentioning this in ref. to some of his weapons going back to c. 1200 AD. As far as devaluing a weapon, does the pitch look old and distressed or was it amateurishly added? If it is still a weapon with known pitch use and falls within the aesthetically acceptable look, I wouldn't worry.