Ku Klux Klan Militia Sword?

Iliad · 15th March 2009, 10:08 PM

Hi all,
I have had this for a while, was told that it is a Ku Klux Klan Militia Sword, dating from the American Civil War period. Can our American friends confirm this? It has a crudely scratched "K" which can just be seen in one of the pics. The initials "AMES" are on the upper part of the blade. Did the KKK actually participate in the fighting in the Civil War? The sword does not appear to be suitable for fighting so may have been just a dress sword.
Brian

Atlantia · 15th March 2009, 10:32 PM

Well many of these organisations use swords in their rituals and ceremonies so I guess the despicable KKK may well be no different?

I would 'think' that is is one of the many types of fairly standard 'society' swords that may well have been pressed into service by them, I doubt very much it was made expressly for them in the first place.
Poor sword!

I guess the white painted 'frog' would go with the bed-sheets?

If you google some variations of 'kkk society sword', 'ames society sword' etc, there seem to be a lot of variations made by Ames and some do seem to have ended up being attributed to that repulsive group.

You are right that this type of sword is purely ceremonial.

M ELEY · 16th March 2009, 02:22 AM

While these swords are indeed repulsive and I personally would never associate myself with them, they were produced in America from the (roughly) periods of 1870's-1930's. In various catalogs of esoteria, I have seen swords, headlight fixtures, trophies, awards, money bonds, etc. I am unaware that Ames ever made any of these, however, nor does it seem plausible they would label their trademark on such a sword of ill-disrepute even during those more racist times. I'm wondering if this isn't a generic fraternal sword made by Ames and altered in some way.

While this area of collecting is VERY controversial, this stuff does have value to those that collect such (I truly like to think that some of those collectors get it as a reminder of that which was evil, much as some German items are included in Holocaust collections). FINALLY, let us not forget that there are many of those that find what we do (collecting antique arms) as offensive and not PC for the times. I've been told that I collect "torture implements", % tools" and by one 'psychic' friend, that I was polluting my home with the spirits of the slain from all those killed by my collection (I often wondered if that included some of the gaudy dress pieces

). The point being, to each their own. I am fascinated about the the story of the Molly McGuires and the Royal Hibernean Fraternal Swords (they were like the IRA), used to have a New Guinea bone dagger CONFIRMED to be made from a human leg bone (not one made from the cassowary), used to have German WWII daggers, am trying to come across an original 'cat-o-nine tails' for my maritime collection % implement), sold my Igorot head axe not that long ago, etc, etc. One person's tin Sambo sign from the "30's" collected as black memoribilia (even among African Americans) is considered by others to be horribly racist and a waste. The point is, to each their own, I guess

Jim McDougall · 16th March 2009, 05:35 AM

I must admit when I first saw this posted, I actually cringed as my immediate reaction was of course revulsion for all the obvious reasons in the mention of this despicable social phenomenon. I then spent some time trying to learn more about some history on this 'organization', and felt like I was reading a fantasy game handbook, as the bizarre titles and fanciful imagery adopted by these individuals were almost as if role playing in an imaginary world.

I think Mark's comment on the Ames Company is most astute, and I completely agree that it is most doubtful in my opinion that they would have produced swords for this clandestine group. Despite thier reputation in producing regalia swords for fraternal societies and groups after the Civil War, I do believe that the Ames Sword Company's earlier and more profound reputation as supplier of military swords to the Union would have precluded thier making a sword for kkk. I think Mark's idea of possible alteration of one of thier swords quite likely.

The 'AMES' marking on the blade is completely atypical of any markings I have seen by this company, which usually was in smaller letters, stamped, and with the full company name.
(There was an outstanding book published by Stuart Mowbray which is a reprint of one of the earlier Ames catalogs including a wide range of regalia type swords...cant think of the title at the moment).

There were indeed however, some kkk swords, which usually had a mounted rider on the escutcheon, and the typical knights head pommel often seen on some military NCO swords as well as some fraternal types.

The kkk was not technically any type of formally organized group during the Civil War, however the men who were its instituting members were indeed from Confederate troops who did fight in the war.

The kkk was formed basically at the end of the Civil War, in the South, and of primarily Confederate soldiers with considerably less rancor than its subsequent incarnations. It seems more to have been club type prankishness than the more familiar image into which it evolved, and was actually ended several years after its inception for the depradations that inevitably resulted. The revival of the group later is reluctantly noted for the purpose of recognizing that its regalia and paraphenalia did of course become 'collectible' in a distastefully sensational way.
Much as has been described, often such items do carry a certain appeal sheerly from thier extreme esoterica, and instill a certain intrique that admittedly sometimes surpasses certain moral inhibitions.

With that 'working description' I would like to avoid further discussion of this group from either social or political perspective, and any editorializing on the history or philosophy of the group, maintaining focus on the actual weapons that might have been in use as regalia.

All best regards,
Jim

Iliad · 16th March 2009, 09:23 AM

Wow! I seem to have quite innocently stirred up a hornets nest! My apologies gentlemen, I had no intention to offend. All I wanted was some comment, and I seem to have got more than I had expected!
I regret any offence caused.
Brian

Jim McDougall · 16th March 2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliad

Wow! I seem to have quite innocently stirred up a hornets nest! My apologies gentlemen, I had no intention to offend. All I wanted was some comment, and I seem to have got more than I had expected!
I regret any offence caused.
Brian

Hi Brian,
No apologies are necessary Brian, in fact you posted this piece admirably, and it is admittedly a pretty interesting item as I noted. Actually, although it seems the responses might be overreaction, it is simply that some subjects become quickly inflammatory, and I think concerns on that were more the focus. The same concerns come up with certain other regalia such as from WWII, which are gratefully outside the scope of these forums.

I think your sword is truly interesting, and these fraternal dress swords were indeed not intended for any sort of combat use. Despite the sensitivity of its associations, I actually was hoping to add a decidedly objective view on this sword in hopes of assuaging any overreaction clouding the discussion. It would appear that my own response inadvertantly carried much of what I hoped to defer. For that Brian, please accept my apologies instead.

All very best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 16th March 2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliad

Wow! I seem to have quite innocently stirred up a hornets nest! My apologies gentlemen, I had no intention to offend. All I wanted was some comment, and I seem to have got more than I had expected!
I regret any offence caused.
Brian

Jim is quite correct Brian.
You are not responsible for the use this sword was put to.

David · 17th March 2009, 01:07 AM

ummm...please excuse me if i interrupt the cringing here, but is there any evidence, other than the "story" that Iliad was told, that this sword ever had any real association with the KKK. It would seem really odd to me that it would be marked with a single "K" if it were. Couldn't this "K" stand for any thing?

VANDOO · 17th March 2009, 01:19 AM

JIM AND MARK ARE CORRECT ON ALL POINTS AND I AGREE THIS SWORD IS MOST PROBABLY JUST A SWORD FROM ONE OF THE MANY FRATERNAL ORGANIZATIONS WHICH HAVE EXHISTED FAR INTO MANS PAST.

ONE MUST REALIZE DURING THE TIME IN WHICH THIS ORGANIZATION WAS FIRST FORMED THE SOUTH HAD BEEN CONQURED AND THE PEOPLE WERE TREATED AS HATED AND CONQUERED ENEMIES. MANY INJUSTICES WERE COMITTED BY THE CONQUERS WHO HAD NO LOVE OR MERCY FOR THEM. THE CONQUERS GOT TO WRITE THE HISTORY OF THIS PERIOD AS IS ALWAYS THE CASE AND NATURALLY MADE THEMSELVES THE WHITE KNIGHTS. THERE WERE CARPETBAGGERS OF EVERY KIND FLOCKING FROM THE NORTH TO PICK THE CARCASS OF THE DEFEATED SOUTH AND THE LAW WAS ON THEIR SIDE JUST AS IT WAS ALWAYS ON THE SIDE OF THE WHITES IN REGARD TO NATIVE AMERICANS. THE PECKING ORDER CHANGED AND THE CONQUERES WERE AT THE TOP ALL OTHERS BELOW THEM AND SUBJECT TO THEIR ORDERS. NO DOUBT THERE WERE NUMEROUS SECRET UNDERGROUND ORGINIZATIONS FORMED DURING THIS TIME TO TRY AND PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM THOSE WHO WERE NOT FAIR OR GOOD GENERALS OR MAGISTRATES IN CHARGE OF THEIR AREAS. THE PLAN WAS TO CRUSH THE SOUTH AND CONTROL IT SO IT WOULD NEVER BE FREE TO RISE AGAIN.

THANKFULLY THIS PERIOD HAS LONG PASSED AND THINGS HAVE WORKED OUT AND WE HAVE ONE COUNTRY WHICH IS AS IT SHOULD BE. THE TIME AND REASONS FOR SUCH MILITANT SOCIETYS HAS PAST NEVER TO RETURN AGAIN I HOPE.
TO EVEN MAKE ANY STATEMENT ON THIS TRUE OR NOT IS VERY RISKY DUE TO POLITICAL CORRECTNESS , BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT OFTEN CAUSES DIFFERENCES AND MISUNDERSTANDING IS THE FAILURE TO COMUNICATE. SO I STICK MY NECK OUT HERE AND GIVE MY VIEW.

TO ANSWER THE UNASKED QUESTION NO I DO NOT BELONG TO OR APPROVE OF THE KKK, NOR DO I WISH THE NATION TO BE TORN APART AND THE SOUTH RISE AGAIN.
MODERATORS IF YOU THINK THIS POST OFFENSIVE PLEASE DELETE.

Jim McDougall · 17th March 2009, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

ummm...please excuse me if i interrupt the cringing here, but is there any evidence, other than the "story" that Iliad was told, that this sword ever had any real association with the KKK. It would seem really odd to me that it would be marked with a single "K" if it were. Couldn't this "K" stand for any thing?

Thats OK David.....but you have to admit...there's nothing quite like a good 'cringe'

Actually, the shield shaped escutcheon on this sword seems to have three crudely fashioned 'K's , the dark ones on either side and a rather subdued one in the center.
Many of the fraternal swords produced carried the initials of many of these organizations, which often included the word 'knight' (s) so sure, if one or two letters of an acronym were 'K's other meanings might be presumed.

With three 'K's however, there is much cause for cringing, and it is pretty amazing how instinctively that reaction occurs.

While of course we are uncertain whether the story about the sword is valid or not, the presence of the markings as they seem to appear, and the questions concerning the subject matter, even though well presented ,were the source of concern.

The answers remain....no, there was no officially known group with the name kkk during the Civil War, and the first group, mostly Confederate soldiers, after the war ended began in a club type atmosphere, which degraded within several years and was disbanded. The subsequent groupings using the earlier title and fanciful hierarchy became the 'organization' which we have noted and 'cringed' in recognizing.

This sword is as noted, very interesting, indeed a dress sword intended as regalia for fraternal issue, probably an imported blade, not in any way associated with the Ames Sword Co.

Best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 17th March 2009, 09:39 AM

www.gatling-gun.com/CivilWarNCOMilitiaKnight'sHeadSword.htm

Here is a similar pattern known as a NCO militia sword. BTW, if you just hit KKK sword under google (I won't post the site here out of respect), you will see similar swords to this one. This one might be an early pattern, but the Ames marking is obviously spurious, with the letters poorly punched. Don't know why anyone would want to fake that marking? Ames made most of the CW UNION swords, after all!

Jim McDougall · 17th March 2009, 02:13 PM

Well said Mark! and this sword is indeed a derivative of the U.S. model 1840 NCO dress swords, which strongly influenced the regalia swords which were produced by many outfitting companies, including Ames after the Civil War.
This resounding and tormented War Between the States left indelible strife throughout our then very young nation, which still subtly remains in certain degree in numerous instances.

At this point I feel it would be most prudent to go ahead and close this thread, though I regret doing so. I think that this sword, much as the countless fraternal regalia swords, particularly those associated with Freemasonry, are fascinating historical items that have become increasingly collectible. This example posted by Brian is a distinct anomaly which, like many Civil War items, is of course accompanied with the degree of lore to explain its very being. Sometimes I think the term 'story' to describe such provenencial material comes across a bit harshly, and with that I once again offer apologies to Brian for said comments, and emphasize that his posting of this sword was admirably done and in the true spirit of weapons study.

With all very best regards to everyone who participated on this thread, and my compliments for your very responsible discussion, the thread is now closed.

Jim

15th March 2009, 10:08 PM	#1
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Ku Klux Klan Militia Sword? Hi all, I have had this for a while, was told that it is a Ku Klux Klan Militia Sword, dating from the American Civil War period. Can our American friends confirm this? It has a crudely scratched "K" which can just be seen in one of the pics. The initials "AMES" are on the upper part of the blade. Did the KKK actually participate in the fighting in the Civil War? The sword does not appear to be suitable for fighting so may have been just a dress sword. Brian Attached Images

15th March 2009, 10:32 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Well many of these organisations use swords in their rituals and ceremonies so I guess the despicable KKK may well be no different? I would 'think' that is is one of the many types of fairly standard 'society' swords that may well have been pressed into service by them, I doubt very much it was made expressly for them in the first place. Poor sword! I guess the white painted 'frog' would go with the bed-sheets? If you google some variations of 'kkk society sword', 'ames society sword' etc, there seem to be a lot of variations made by Ames and some do seem to have ended up being attributed to that repulsive group. You are right that this type of sword is purely ceremonial. Last edited by Atlantia; 15th March 2009 at 10:43 PM.

16th March 2009, 05:35 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	I must admit when I first saw this posted, I actually cringed as my immediate reaction was of course revulsion for all the obvious reasons in the mention of this despicable social phenomenon. I then spent some time trying to learn more about some history on this 'organization', and felt like I was reading a fantasy game handbook, as the bizarre titles and fanciful imagery adopted by these individuals were almost as if role playing in an imaginary world. I think Mark's comment on the Ames Company is most astute, and I completely agree that it is most doubtful in my opinion that they would have produced swords for this clandestine group. Despite thier reputation in producing regalia swords for fraternal societies and groups after the Civil War, I do believe that the Ames Sword Company's earlier and more profound reputation as supplier of military swords to the Union would have precluded thier making a sword for kkk. I think Mark's idea of possible alteration of one of thier swords quite likely. The 'AMES' marking on the blade is completely atypical of any markings I have seen by this company, which usually was in smaller letters, stamped, and with the full company name. (There was an outstanding book published by Stuart Mowbray which is a reprint of one of the earlier Ames catalogs including a wide range of regalia type swords...cant think of the title at the moment). There were indeed however, some kkk swords, which usually had a mounted rider on the escutcheon, and the typical knights head pommel often seen on some military NCO swords as well as some fraternal types. The kkk was not technically any type of formally organized group during the Civil War, however the men who were its instituting members were indeed from Confederate troops who did fight in the war. The kkk was formed basically at the end of the Civil War, in the South, and of primarily Confederate soldiers with considerably less rancor than its subsequent incarnations. It seems more to have been club type prankishness than the more familiar image into which it evolved, and was actually ended several years after its inception for the depradations that inevitably resulted. The revival of the group later is reluctantly noted for the purpose of recognizing that its regalia and paraphenalia did of course become 'collectible' in a distastefully sensational way. Much as has been described, often such items do carry a certain appeal sheerly from thier extreme esoterica, and instill a certain intrique that admittedly sometimes surpasses certain moral inhibitions. With that 'working description' I would like to avoid further discussion of this group from either social or political perspective, and any editorializing on the history or philosophy of the group, maintaining focus on the actual weapons that might have been in use as regalia. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th March 2009 at 05:47 AM.

16th March 2009, 09:23 AM	#5
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	KKK Militia Sword? Wow! I seem to have quite innocently stirred up a hornets nest! My apologies gentlemen, I had no intention to offend. All I wanted was some comment, and I seem to have got more than I had expected! I regret any offence caused. Brian

17th March 2009, 02:13 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Well said Mark! and this sword is indeed a derivative of the U.S. model 1840 NCO dress swords, which strongly influenced the regalia swords which were produced by many outfitting companies, including Ames after the Civil War. This resounding and tormented War Between the States left indelible strife throughout our then very young nation, which still subtly remains in certain degree in numerous instances. At this point I feel it would be most prudent to go ahead and close this thread, though I regret doing so. I think that this sword, much as the countless fraternal regalia swords, particularly those associated with Freemasonry, are fascinating historical items that have become increasingly collectible. This example posted by Brian is a distinct anomaly which, like many Civil War items, is of course accompanied with the degree of lore to explain its very being. Sometimes I think the term 'story' to describe such provenencial material comes across a bit harshly, and with that I once again offer apologies to Brian for said comments, and emphasize that his posting of this sword was admirably done and in the true spirit of weapons study. With all very best regards to everyone who participated on this thread, and my compliments for your very responsible discussion, the thread is now closed. Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 18th March 2009 at 02:55 AM. Reason: revised text

16th March 2009, 02:22 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	While these swords are indeed repulsive and I personally would never associate myself with them, they were produced in America from the (roughly) periods of 1870's-1930's. In various catalogs of esoteria, I have seen swords, headlight fixtures, trophies, awards, money bonds, etc. I am unaware that Ames ever made any of these, however, nor does it seem plausible they would label their trademark on such a sword of ill-disrepute even during those more racist times. I'm wondering if this isn't a generic fraternal sword made by Ames and altered in some way. While this area of collecting is VERY controversial, this stuff does have value to those that collect such (I truly like to think that some of those collectors get it as a reminder of that which was evil, much as some German items are included in Holocaust collections). FINALLY, let us not forget that there are many of those that find what we do (collecting antique arms) as offensive and not PC for the times. I've been told that I collect "torture implements", % tools" and by one 'psychic' friend, that I was polluting my home with the spirits of the slain from all those killed by my collection (I often wondered if that included some of the gaudy dress pieces ). The point being, to each their own. I am fascinated about the the story of the Molly McGuires and the Royal Hibernean Fraternal Swords (they were like the IRA), used to have a New Guinea bone dagger CONFIRMED to be made from a human leg bone (not one made from the cassowary), used to have German WWII daggers, am trying to come across an original 'cat-o-nine tails' for my maritime collection % implement), sold my Igorot head axe not that long ago, etc, etc. One person's tin Sambo sign from the "30's" collected as black memoribilia (even among African Americans) is considered by others to be horribly racist and a waste. The point is, to each their own, I guess

17th March 2009, 01:07 AM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,025	ummm...please excuse me if i interrupt the cringing here, but is there any evidence, other than the "story" that Iliad was told, that this sword ever had any real association with the KKK. It would seem really odd to me that it would be marked with a single "K" if it were. Couldn't this "K" stand for any thing?

17th March 2009, 01:19 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	JIM AND MARK ARE CORRECT ON ALL POINTS AND I AGREE THIS SWORD IS MOST PROBABLY JUST A SWORD FROM ONE OF THE MANY FRATERNAL ORGANIZATIONS WHICH HAVE EXHISTED FAR INTO MANS PAST. ONE MUST REALIZE DURING THE TIME IN WHICH THIS ORGANIZATION WAS FIRST FORMED THE SOUTH HAD BEEN CONQURED AND THE PEOPLE WERE TREATED AS HATED AND CONQUERED ENEMIES. MANY INJUSTICES WERE COMITTED BY THE CONQUERS WHO HAD NO LOVE OR MERCY FOR THEM. THE CONQUERS GOT TO WRITE THE HISTORY OF THIS PERIOD AS IS ALWAYS THE CASE AND NATURALLY MADE THEMSELVES THE WHITE KNIGHTS. THERE WERE CARPETBAGGERS OF EVERY KIND FLOCKING FROM THE NORTH TO PICK THE CARCASS OF THE DEFEATED SOUTH AND THE LAW WAS ON THEIR SIDE JUST AS IT WAS ALWAYS ON THE SIDE OF THE WHITES IN REGARD TO NATIVE AMERICANS. THE PECKING ORDER CHANGED AND THE CONQUERES WERE AT THE TOP ALL OTHERS BELOW THEM AND SUBJECT TO THEIR ORDERS. NO DOUBT THERE WERE NUMEROUS SECRET UNDERGROUND ORGINIZATIONS FORMED DURING THIS TIME TO TRY AND PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM THOSE WHO WERE NOT FAIR OR GOOD GENERALS OR MAGISTRATES IN CHARGE OF THEIR AREAS. THE PLAN WAS TO CRUSH THE SOUTH AND CONTROL IT SO IT WOULD NEVER BE FREE TO RISE AGAIN. THANKFULLY THIS PERIOD HAS LONG PASSED AND THINGS HAVE WORKED OUT AND WE HAVE ONE COUNTRY WHICH IS AS IT SHOULD BE. THE TIME AND REASONS FOR SUCH MILITANT SOCIETYS HAS PAST NEVER TO RETURN AGAIN I HOPE. TO EVEN MAKE ANY STATEMENT ON THIS TRUE OR NOT IS VERY RISKY DUE TO POLITICAL CORRECTNESS , BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT OFTEN CAUSES DIFFERENCES AND MISUNDERSTANDING IS THE FAILURE TO COMUNICATE. SO I STICK MY NECK OUT HERE AND GIVE MY VIEW. TO ANSWER THE UNASKED QUESTION NO I DO NOT BELONG TO OR APPROVE OF THE KKK, NOR DO I WISH THE NATION TO BE TORN APART AND THE SOUTH RISE AGAIN. MODERATORS IF YOU THINK THIS POST OFFENSIVE PLEASE DELETE.

17th March 2009, 09:39 AM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	www.gatling-gun.com/CivilWarNCOMilitiaKnight'sHeadSword.htm Here is a similar pattern known as a NCO militia sword. BTW, if you just hit KKK sword under google (I won't post the site here out of respect), you will see similar swords to this one. This one might be an early pattern, but the Ames marking is obviously spurious, with the letters poorly punched. Don't know why anyone would want to fake that marking? Ames made most of the CW UNION swords, after all!