Chinese Sabre

Gavin Nugent · 25th November 2007, 09:40 PM

Hi everyone, I have had this sabre for a while now, bought it from you know where from a great seller. I am hoping someone can put a date to this piece. I have used the sellers photos to save on resizing what images I have taken. Any info would be greatly appreciated, also at the end is a photo of another that is going under the hammer tomorrow here in Australia, any thoughts and value would be appreciated.

regards

Gavin

josh stout · 26th November 2007, 03:59 PM

Chinese fakes can be very convincing, but -I think- the top one is a typical late 19th C. niuweidao/proto-niuweidao. The scabbard may be new wood. The best way to tell is to look at the mouth of the scabbard to see the condition of the wood. Otherwise it appears to be a nice piece.

The second one is so clean it makes me very suspicious. I have been wrong about these things before, but I see several reasons to be doubtful. Beware of antiques that look brand new.

Usually it is possible to tell if a blade is pattern welded with an inserted edge plate, and usually if you see the edge plate then you know at least the blade is real. Many old blades are then matched with reproduction fittings and sold as mint condition antiques. I am seeing more of this lately including items from western eBay sellers. That said, the price of Chinese swords/dao has lead the counterfeiters to begin producing pattern welded blades with inserted edges. The rumor is that some of them can even fool the professionals.

Be very careful.
Josh

Gavin Nugent · 28th November 2007, 11:42 AM

Thanks heaps for the info Josh, The blade looks very old with a wonderful watered pattern throughout, the scabbard end however doesn't look new but it certainly doesn't look a hundred years old either. It does however appear to be covered in what I would call a very very fine skin, almost like our own skin when it peels after a bad day in the sun... lacquer perhaps has this effect? At least you have now given me a further avenue to pursue for my own knowledge.

Am loving this site, thanks again Josh.

Gav

josh stout · 29th November 2007, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Thanks heaps for the info Josh, The blade looks very old with a wonderful watered pattern throughout, the scabbard end however doesn't look new but it certainly doesn't look a hundred years old either. It does however appear to be covered in what I would call a very very fine skin, almost like our own skin when it peels after a bad day in the sun... lacquer perhaps has this effect? At least you have now given me a further avenue to pursue for my own knowledge.

Am loving this site, thanks again Josh.

Gav

I assume you are talking about the top blade. If the scabbard were a slightly later replacement, it would still be considered to be "period" work up through the forties. I have a couple of pieces where I think the scabbard was replaced late, but not recently.

Chinese lacquered scabbards were made with a wooden core, then thin cheesecloth like fabric coated with some sort of white gesso. This gives the lacquer something to hold onto, and in typical, not perfectly finished, examples, the weave of the underlying fabric is visible in spots. The lacquer forms a very thin coat and does get "flaky: with age.
Josh

25th November 2007, 09:40 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Chinese Sabre Hi everyone, I have had this sabre for a while now, bought it from you know where from a great seller. I am hoping someone can put a date to this piece. I have used the sellers photos to save on resizing what images I have taken. Any info would be greatly appreciated, also at the end is a photo of another that is going under the hammer tomorrow here in Australia, any thoughts and value would be appreciated. regards Gavin Attached Images

28th November 2007, 11:42 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks for the heads up Josh Thanks heaps for the info Josh, The blade looks very old with a wonderful watered pattern throughout, the scabbard end however doesn't look new but it certainly doesn't look a hundred years old either. It does however appear to be covered in what I would call a very very fine skin, almost like our own skin when it peels after a bad day in the sun... lacquer perhaps has this effect? At least you have now given me a further avenue to pursue for my own knowledge. Am loving this site, thanks again Josh. Gav

26th November 2007, 03:59 PM	#2
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Chinese fakes can be very convincing, but -I think- the top one is a typical late 19th C. niuweidao/proto-niuweidao. The scabbard may be new wood. The best way to tell is to look at the mouth of the scabbard to see the condition of the wood. Otherwise it appears to be a nice piece. The second one is so clean it makes me very suspicious. I have been wrong about these things before, but I see several reasons to be doubtful. Beware of antiques that look brand new. Usually it is possible to tell if a blade is pattern welded with an inserted edge plate, and usually if you see the edge plate then you know at least the blade is real. Many old blades are then matched with reproduction fittings and sold as mint condition antiques. I am seeing more of this lately including items from western eBay sellers. That said, the price of Chinese swords/dao has lead the counterfeiters to begin producing pattern welded blades with inserted edges. The rumor is that some of them can even fool the professionals. Be very careful. Josh