Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 2nd July 2020, 04:52 PM   #1
shayde78
Member
 
shayde78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 442
Default Persian(?) blade and incongruent hilt

Hi everyone,

I wanted to seek comments on the item below. If pressed, I would have to classify this as a Persian blade. I know the exact naming can be a point of contention, so I will simply leave it at "blade" and let all of you weigh in on the correct nomenclature. Having never actually had one of these in hand before, I am surprised at the dimensions. Seeing pictures in books, they seem much smaller, but this size seems consistent with knives intended for serious purpose. This also has a thickened point that I tried to show in one of the pictures.

I won't even hazard a guess as to age, other than somewhere between 1-2020 CE. If you can narrow it down to somewhere in that 2000 year range, that would be appreciated

The hilt, however, seems poorly matched to this blade. It would seem the shoulders of the blade, as currently mounted, between the ricasso and the hilt, should rest inside the hilt itself lending an extra level of stability to the construction. This leads me to conclude the hilt is a much later addition and was crafted by someone not overly familiar with such knives. Of course, I could just be revealing my inexperience and be completely wrong.

The scabbard, despite its current coloration is steel/iron. It still has a ton of rust on it, but I wanted to specify it isn't brass. I am curious if it would have originally been lined with wood, but as of now, it is all metal. You'll notice it is missing the terminal finial.

As always, all comments are welcome!

Specifications:
Overall length - 17.5" (43.5cm)
Blade length - from tip to shoulder 12" (30.5cm)
Hilt length - 5" (13cm)
Blade width at shoulder - 2" (5.25cm)

Thanks everyone
Attached Images
          
shayde78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2020, 05:10 PM   #2
Bob A
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 403
Default

I'd be slightly inclined toward India as the origin, based entirely on the vegetal ornamentation - Persian blades are often seen with animal representation. Steel scabbard also seems Indian to me.

I agree the hilt is a replacement. Huge blade! I'd figure a date range in the last century or two.

I have no basis for any of the above; uninformed opinion.
Bob A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2020, 05:46 PM   #3
RSWORD
Member
 
RSWORD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,083
Default

This is a late Qajar period Persian dagger. The handle would have originally been just like the scabbard. Same type of decoration and would have been all steel as well. If you Google Persian Qajar all steel dagger you will see similar examples. Late 19th century for blade and scabbard and handle replaced at a later time.
RSWORD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2020, 08:21 PM   #4
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

I am with RSWORD: khanjar, late Qajar, replaced handle, original scabbard.
My only hesitation: some pics of the blade are suspicious for being wootz-y.
The blade is patinated and the issue can be resolved only by polishing and etching at least a decent size window.
If it is wootz, I would change my guess to "potentially Zand-eariler Qajar".
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd July 2020, 08:24 PM   #5
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,860
Default

Indian!

Both, blade and hilt. 20th century.

I have yet to see a Persian khanjar with double concave fullers and reinforced tip!
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2020, 12:13 AM   #6
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,135
Default

Indian khanjars do not have a forte and scabbard chiseled like this. I'm with RSword on this one entirely.

Better pictures would be more helpful though.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2020, 12:24 AM   #7
shayde78
Member
 
shayde78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 442
Default

Thank you everyone for the comments so far!
I'm glad to see there isn't a clear consensus as I enjoy the opportunity to learn from the knowledgeable back and forth.
Send like the sum of opinions is leaning towards Persian, late 19th, early 20th. Marius' thought has merit. I have seen examples with curved fullers being attributed to the 1800s. However, the thickened tip doesn't seem particularly useful if the knife is used in a clawing, slashing manner (like a karambet). However, this is not an area of expertise, and others may provide examples that challenge this. I know thickened tips are kind of pervasive on weapons from this region.
As for the suggestion of wootz, I thought the same thing viewing the auction photographs based on the pattern of oxidation. Upon close look, I don't think it is, but I may polish a section for a better view.

Once again, thank you, and I look forward to seeing additional thoughts.

Last edited by shayde78; 5th July 2020 at 12:50 AM.
shayde78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2020, 08:05 AM   #8
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,860
Default

Persian, 18th century and not wootz?!

I may agree with the Persian attribution but definitely not 18th century.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by mariusgmioc; 5th July 2020 at 06:49 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.