Spanish Dagger comments please

Marcus · 18th July 2006, 04:54 PM

I just bought this "Castillian Dagger" in Toledo. Believe me, it was hard to find anything in Toledo that was not tourist junk. It has a Toledo mark and is dated 1870. If anyone can offe more insights, I would appreciate it.
Marcus

not2sharp · 18th July 2006, 10:18 PM

Marcus,

That looks like it might be a modern reproduction. It is hard to see the tang stamp on the knife. Do you have a better image?

n2s

Marcus · 18th July 2006, 10:35 PM

I believe the dealer was very reputable. We talked for an hour. He knew the difference between old and new and did not misrepresent his pieces. He did tell me that he thought the inlays that look like bone were probably bakelite or some other early synthetic.
Here is another picture of the proof mark.

Marc · 18th July 2006, 10:45 PM

It's an "Albacete" dagger, named such because this pattern is considered typical from the city of Albacete, in the actual Spanish region of Castilla La Mancha
The pictures are not clear enough to pass a truly accurate judgement about the age of this specimen, but if its indeed old, the style would coincide with the second half of the 19th. - beginning of 20th centuries.
I would not place much hope in the blade's inscriptions. Decoration on these blades used to be punched with geometrical patterns of dots or etched with foliage and inscriptions. Featuring the manufaturing date is not unheard of, but it normally appars as an etching. The "Toledo" mark is even more spurious. In short, they are good candidates to be later additions.

Despite of this, if it's indeed old it's a nice exemplar. My congratulations on actually finding a weapon really worth buying in the city, it's not easy, as you've already pointed out. And the few places with some genuine material are freakingly expensive...

Marcus · 19th July 2006, 05:50 AM

Thank you Marc. By the way, the dealer's name is Julio Linares Graciani.

My wife and I are on our first visit to Spain and will soon go on to Barcelona. Are there shops or districts there you might recomend I visit? I collect edged weapons but my greater interest is in antique pistols.

Marc · 19th July 2006, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

Thank you Marc. By the way, the dealer's name is Julio Linares Graciani.

My wife and I are on our first visit to Spain and will soon go on to Barcelona. Are there shops or districts there you might recomend I visit? I collect edged weapons but my greater interest is in antique pistols.

Yes, near the Synagogue of Santa María la Blanca, I know the shop...

On the other hand, sadly, in the few years that have passed since I left Barcelona, the two most important antique shops specialized in arms and armour have closed their showrooms. They're not out of business, but now you can't just walk in... anyway, if you have time and your wife is in the right mood, you could make a stop at the Army Museum in Montjuïch Castle, or the Ethnological Museum, which is relatively close.
While in Madrid, and related to the Arms and Armour field, don't miss, in this order, The Royal Armouries (in the Royal Palace), the Naval Museum, the Ethnological Museum, the Lázaro Galdeano Museum (I think the Arms and Armour section is only open in the weekends, phone them to check), the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan (only by appointment) or the Cerralbo Museum. Any touristic guide worth its salt should fill you in with the details of the places I mentioned...

Send me a PM if you plan to visit the Archaeological Museum, by the way.
Oh, and, please, enjoy your stay

I hope these days' heat wave isn't making things too difficult...

Chris Evans · 20th July 2006, 08:33 AM

Hi Marcus,

Not2sharp has summed it up pretty neatly. It is a dagger in the Albacete pattern, but its date of manufacture is a puzzle. If the inserts are indeed synthetic, as you suspect, (the handle looks too white to be bone) then that would date is as post WWI and daggers such as your were still being manufactured as late as 1960 for the tourist trade. I also find that "1870" highly suspect, and by way of comment can add that the practice of falsifying dates of manufacture as well as brands was not uncommon amongst Spanish cutlers. The all too ubiquitous "Toledo" can be found in any number of junk Spanish navajas, knives and swords, being a generic brand intended to beguile tourists, trading on the justly famous reputation of the sword blades manufactured in that city before the 20th cntry.

I could not identify the logo-brand from my books

Is the blade hardened?

Cheers
Chris

18th July 2006, 04:54 PM	#1
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Spanish Dagger comments please I just bought this "Castillian Dagger" in Toledo. Believe me, it was hard to find anything in Toledo that was not tourist junk. It has a Toledo mark and is dated 1870. If anyone can offe more insights, I would appreciate it. Marcus Attached Images

18th July 2006, 10:35 PM	#3
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	mark I believe the dealer was very reputable. We talked for an hour. He knew the difference between old and new and did not misrepresent his pieces. He did tell me that he thought the inlays that look like bone were probably bakelite or some other early synthetic. Here is another picture of the proof mark. Attached Images

18th July 2006, 10:18 PM	#2
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Marcus, That looks like it might be a modern reproduction. It is hard to see the tang stamp on the knife. Do you have a better image? n2s

18th July 2006, 10:45 PM	#4
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	It's an "Albacete" dagger, named such because this pattern is considered typical from the city of Albacete, in the actual Spanish region of Castilla La Mancha The pictures are not clear enough to pass a truly accurate judgement about the age of this specimen, but if its indeed old, the style would coincide with the second half of the 19th. - beginning of 20th centuries. I would not place much hope in the blade's inscriptions. Decoration on these blades used to be punched with geometrical patterns of dots or etched with foliage and inscriptions. Featuring the manufaturing date is not unheard of, but it normally appars as an etching. The "Toledo" mark is even more spurious. In short, they are good candidates to be later additions. Despite of this, if it's indeed old it's a nice exemplar. My congratulations on actually finding a weapon really worth buying in the city, it's not easy, as you've already pointed out. And the few places with some genuine material are freakingly expensive...

19th July 2006, 05:50 AM	#5
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Thank you Marc. By the way, the dealer's name is Julio Linares Graciani. My wife and I are on our first visit to Spain and will soon go on to Barcelona. Are there shops or districts there you might recomend I visit? I collect edged weapons but my greater interest is in antique pistols.

20th July 2006, 08:33 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 661	Hi Marcus, Not2sharp has summed it up pretty neatly. It is a dagger in the Albacete pattern, but its date of manufacture is a puzzle. If the inserts are indeed synthetic, as you suspect, (the handle looks too white to be bone) then that would date is as post WWI and daggers such as your were still being manufactured as late as 1960 for the tourist trade. I also find that "1870" highly suspect, and by way of comment can add that the practice of falsifying dates of manufacture as well as brands was not uncommon amongst Spanish cutlers. The all too ubiquitous "Toledo" can be found in any number of junk Spanish navajas, knives and swords, being a generic brand intended to beguile tourists, trading on the justly famous reputation of the sword blades manufactured in that city before the 20th cntry. I could not identify the logo-brand from my books Is the blade hardened? Cheers Chris