keris and spirit

Raden Usman Djogja · 9th May 2007, 09:43 AM

Friends,

I got a private message. Perhaps, this message was from one of you. I am afraid I can not open it. So, would you please to reemail me through this following email address: oosmaand@yahoo.com. Thank you.

Kai, firstly thank you. Secondly, of course, meteorites will be used only as a tiny part of Keris. My concern is, at least, there will be extraterrestrial content. Even, because of lack of technology, the empu/Smith cannot forge it, then becoming "pamor mungul", it doesn' matter for me.

I have never bought anything through eBay. Is it difficult? Can I pay through Western Union? Now, I don't even have a bank account in Africa. I save money "uder the pillow". Yes, this is Africa. But I enjoy the rest. And, in which eBay, where can I get good quality and reasonable price of meteorite?

As a know, your assumption is right. Smith/Empu Djeno said that he had transferred most of his knowledge to Sungkowo. However, I have never met personally with "Smith" Sungkowo. Morever, I do not see his fully own creation, either. Perhaps, for my own collection, I am quite selective. Usually, I don't buy unstandard Keris such as "nerjang landep, pegat wojo, tugel pesi (does anyone give english translation for these terms, please? I want to learn English, too)"

David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.

pakana · 9th May 2007, 10:47 AM

Hello dear kerislovers,

First, I was happy to read the new thread by Raden.Most threads in this forum deal with the technical aspect of keris, and very few about the mystical one.Even when I post a question about that matter, no one bothers to reply!!

Of course this is a forum that the major part of the people that participate are westerners, and us westerners have a more realistic approach in spiritual matters, comparing with the Eastern people. I can understand that because my country Greece is at the middle point between West and East. So we have an attitude very pragmatic, and at the same time metaphisical

Maybe a lot of people here afraid to put down their experiences in the mystical side of keris, with the fear of maybe be misunderstood and laughed of. Or maybe they DO have incidents assosiated with keris, but they refuse to share because of some oath or something.

But I think that it is wrong to separate the pragmatic and the mystical side of keris, because these are one. Don't forget that keris were used more as a ritual object, and less as a stabing weapon.

George

Alam Shah · 9th May 2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.

eBay USA: http://www.ebay.com/

You can search "canyon diablo". This is an iron meteorite.

Info about this meteorite:
http://www.alaska.net/~meteor/CDinfo.htm

ganjawulung · 9th May 2007, 11:23 AM

Would you mind if I join the "mysticism sharing", Raden?

There is a good book I've read on it (not finished yet), "Mysticism in Java", written by an anthropologist Niels Mulder (2005). Although in English, it is published by an Indonesian publisher, Kanisius in Yogyakarta (2005).

This not a promotion of that book, of course. I just want to share with you all.. This book is about an understanding of Javanese mysticism, and the ethics and patterns of thought that stem from it. It is esential to fathom the public discourse in Indonesia. Why Javanese? Because the Javanese form by far the largest ethnic group of the island nation (there are around 30.000 islands in Indonesia). The Javanese -- according to Niels Mulder -- are the dominating force in politics and national culture, and their ideas and beliefs from the essence of Indonesian ideology. In this book, Niels Mulder analyses the old heritage, and demonstrates its relationships with the current effort to create a national ideology and identity.

Dr Niels Mulder is not new to Indonesian. He is an independent anthropologist who conducted field research in Indonesia in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Among his books are, "Inside Indonesian Society: Cultural Change in Java", and also, "Inside Southeast Asia: Religion, Everyday Life, Cultural Change. He wrote also "Inside Thai Society: An Interpretation of Everyday Life.

Mulder's style of writing is entertaining. Thus, it makes his books easily accessible to anyone interested in the working of South-east Asian Society.

And this very book on Mysticism in Java, is not expensive. Available in almost big book stores in Indonesia such as Gramedia, or Gunung Agung. It cost only Rp 35.000, or about 3,5 euro.

I said to you once again, this is not a promotion. Or even an advertorial...

Alam Shah · 9th May 2007, 12:31 PM

Raden if you could find a smith who is willing to work with the meteorite materials, let us know. I have 3 different types of meteorite which can be used for a single keris blade.

Some considerations that I have for making the blade is trusting the smith, (with my meteorites). Unless, I'm there to witness the blade making process, there is a concern that the meteorite might not actually be used on my blade.

Besides this, the outcome of the pamor and finishing on the blade...hmmm...

Do let us know your progress...

Raden Usman Djogja · 9th May 2007, 01:43 PM

Ganjawulung. Let you join the discussion with honors, Sir. The title of the book you have been reading is very provocative using term Java rather than Indonesia. But anyway, the writer must have a strong reason. I will read that book as soon as I get it. In which part, does mysticism differ with religion since none see the shape of God? Yes, all we see God through His existence. When we feel His presence, who give an authority to claim that my way is religious while other way is mysticiuos or paganious. I am afraid that God himself doesn give an authority to other entities to make a claim. Only us, as human being, feel that God has trusted us to make such judgment.

Alam Shah. This morning (GMT) or afternoon (GMT+7/Indonesia), I called Smith Sungkowo. He has already sent my comissioned keris to my parents' home at 10.00 GMT+7. During discussion, he said that he continued what late Smith Djeno did as Empu/Smith Keris. Now, he is making a keris comissioned by Malay (not mentioned clearly who). I don't know the outcome of my comissioned keris yet. Even not watching yet, I enjoy my feeling that, since now, I have a keris which made for me personally. It is very very very unique feeling. Perhaps, one of kerislovers, here, have ever had same feeling like me right now?

As I know, the late Smith Djeno made one or two keris(es) comissioned by the late Hamengkubowono IX. At that time, he used Prambanan meteorite. If at that time, Sungkowo involved as panjak/apprentice, so logically, he has an experience to deal with meteorite. Nevertheless, it is not a guarantee that he will be able to do by his own ability without supervised by late Smith Djeno. Perhaps, you can ask directly to him according this matter.

Alam, I have checked eBay. Unfortunately, the is no Senegal in eBay list. I dont have local bank account, either.

A. G. Maisey · 9th May 2007, 08:19 PM

In Jawa, meteorites were welded for use as keris pamor by making a package of small pieces wrapped in iron, welding the meteorites into the iron, and then repeatedly folding and welding the iron with the meteorite pieces in it, thus removing the impurities.This produced the base material which could then be used with more iron, or without, for the pamor.

I do not know of any current era keris makers who have welded meteoritic material to make pamor material.

Some years ago I welded some meteoritic material to produce a solid ingot of meteoritic material. I did not incorporate it into iron prior to welding it, but welded the small pieces of meteoritic material together, and then repeatedly folded and rewelded these to produce a solid, clean piece of pure meteoritic material. This was passed to a maker in Surakarta to produce a keris using this as pamor material. I was dissatisfied with this keris and it was sold to (I believe) the Ambassador for Venezuela to Indonesia. There was sufficient material for a second keris, and with this second keris I worked more closely with the maker, and a satisfactory blade was produced.

It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to make a piece of pamor material exclusively of meteoritic material, in the usual type of forge used in Jawa.

Raden Usman Djogja · 10th May 2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There was sufficient material for a second keris, and with this second keris I worked more closely with the maker, and a satisfactory blade was produced.

Alan,
Based on your opinion, is the pamor used meteorite different (visually) from pamor used non-meteorite materials?

Ooh... lucky you having opportunities to make those workings/experiments.

Guys, do you have any idea what I should do if I want to buy something trough eBay while there is no PayPal around here?

Pararel with this thread, there is hot discussions about pamor rojogundolo. I have kerises which claimed as rojogundolos (one is Kiai Rojosònô [sònô=dog] and another one is Kiai Gundolobajang [bajang=inperfect fetus?]. Actually, I open to share pictures of mine but getting a problem not know how to upload.

Us

David · 10th May 2007, 01:58 PM

Raden, to upload images is fairly easy. Just beneath your "Reply" box is an area for "Additional Options". The second one of those says "Manage Attachments". Click on that and follow through. It shpould give you the ability to upload any image on your desktop.

And accessing you "Private messages" should be even easier. Go to the top of the page. In the first box, just below the Vikingsword heading there is a thin box that runs the length of the page. On the far right in that box is the private message link that should take you to your messages.

9th May 2007, 12:31 PM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Raden if you could find a smith who is willing to work with the meteorite materials, let us know. I have 3 different types of meteorite which can be used for a single keris blade. Some considerations that I have for making the blade is trusting the smith, (with my meteorites). Unless, I'm there to witness the blade making process, there is a concern that the meteorite might not actually be used on my blade. Besides this, the outcome of the pamor and finishing on the blade...hmmm... Do let us know your progress... Last edited by Alam Shah; 9th May 2007 at 04:20 PM.

9th May 2007, 09:43 AM	#1
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Friends, I got a private message. Perhaps, this message was from one of you. I am afraid I can not open it. So, would you please to reemail me through this following email address: oosmaand@yahoo.com. Thank you. Kai, firstly thank you. Secondly, of course, meteorites will be used only as a tiny part of Keris. My concern is, at least, there will be extraterrestrial content. Even, because of lack of technology, the empu/Smith cannot forge it, then becoming "pamor mungul", it doesn' matter for me. I have never bought anything through eBay. Is it difficult? Can I pay through Western Union? Now, I don't even have a bank account in Africa. I save money "uder the pillow". Yes, this is Africa. But I enjoy the rest. And, in which eBay, where can I get good quality and reasonable price of meteorite? As a know, your assumption is right. Smith/Empu Djeno said that he had transferred most of his knowledge to Sungkowo. However, I have never met personally with "Smith" Sungkowo. Morever, I do not see his fully own creation, either. Perhaps, for my own collection, I am quite selective. Usually, I don't buy unstandard Keris such as "nerjang landep, pegat wojo, tugel pesi (does anyone give english translation for these terms, please? I want to learn English, too)" David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.

9th May 2007, 10:47 AM	#2
pakana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 74	Hello dear kerislovers, First, I was happy to read the new thread by Raden.Most threads in this forum deal with the technical aspect of keris, and very few about the mystical one.Even when I post a question about that matter, no one bothers to reply!! Of course this is a forum that the major part of the people that participate are westerners, and us westerners have a more realistic approach in spiritual matters, comparing with the Eastern people. I can understand that because my country Greece is at the middle point between West and East. So we have an attitude very pragmatic, and at the same time metaphisical Maybe a lot of people here afraid to put down their experiences in the mystical side of keris, with the fear of maybe be misunderstood and laughed of. Or maybe they DO have incidents assosiated with keris, but they refuse to share because of some oath or something. But I think that it is wrong to separate the pragmatic and the mystical side of keris, because these are one. Don't forget that keris were used more as a ritual object, and less as a stabing weapon. George

9th May 2007, 11:23 AM	#4
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Would you mind if I join the "mysticism sharing", Raden? There is a good book I've read on it (not finished yet), "Mysticism in Java", written by an anthropologist Niels Mulder (2005). Although in English, it is published by an Indonesian publisher, Kanisius in Yogyakarta (2005). This not a promotion of that book, of course. I just want to share with you all.. This book is about an understanding of Javanese mysticism, and the ethics and patterns of thought that stem from it. It is esential to fathom the public discourse in Indonesia. Why Javanese? Because the Javanese form by far the largest ethnic group of the island nation (there are around 30.000 islands in Indonesia). The Javanese -- according to Niels Mulder -- are the dominating force in politics and national culture, and their ideas and beliefs from the essence of Indonesian ideology. In this book, Niels Mulder analyses the old heritage, and demonstrates its relationships with the current effort to create a national ideology and identity. Dr Niels Mulder is not new to Indonesian. He is an independent anthropologist who conducted field research in Indonesia in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Among his books are, "Inside Indonesian Society: Cultural Change in Java", and also, "Inside Southeast Asia: Religion, Everyday Life, Cultural Change. He wrote also "Inside Thai Society: An Interpretation of Everyday Life. Mulder's style of writing is entertaining. Thus, it makes his books easily accessible to anyone interested in the working of South-east Asian Society. And this very book on Mysticism in Java, is not expensive. Available in almost big book stores in Indonesia such as Gramedia, or Gunung Agung. It cost only Rp 35.000, or about 3,5 euro. I said to you once again, this is not a promotion. Or even an advertorial...

9th May 2007, 01:43 PM	#6
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Ganjawulung. Let you join the discussion with honors, Sir. The title of the book you have been reading is very provocative using term Java rather than Indonesia. But anyway, the writer must have a strong reason. I will read that book as soon as I get it. In which part, does mysticism differ with religion since none see the shape of God? Yes, all we see God through His existence. When we feel His presence, who give an authority to claim that my way is religious while other way is mysticiuos or paganious. I am afraid that God himself doesn give an authority to other entities to make a claim. Only us, as human being, feel that God has trusted us to make such judgment. Alam Shah. This morning (GMT) or afternoon (GMT+7/Indonesia), I called Smith Sungkowo. He has already sent my comissioned keris to my parents' home at 10.00 GMT+7. During discussion, he said that he continued what late Smith Djeno did as Empu/Smith Keris. Now, he is making a keris comissioned by Malay (not mentioned clearly who). I don't know the outcome of my comissioned keris yet. Even not watching yet, I enjoy my feeling that, since now, I have a keris which made for me personally. It is very very very unique feeling. Perhaps, one of kerislovers, here, have ever had same feeling like me right now? As I know, the late Smith Djeno made one or two keris(es) comissioned by the late Hamengkubowono IX. At that time, he used Prambanan meteorite. If at that time, Sungkowo involved as panjak/apprentice, so logically, he has an experience to deal with meteorite. Nevertheless, it is not a guarantee that he will be able to do by his own ability without supervised by late Smith Djeno. Perhaps, you can ask directly to him according this matter. Alam, I have checked eBay. Unfortunately, the is no Senegal in eBay list. I dont have local bank account, either.

9th May 2007, 08:19 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	In Jawa, meteorites were welded for use as keris pamor by making a package of small pieces wrapped in iron, welding the meteorites into the iron, and then repeatedly folding and welding the iron with the meteorite pieces in it, thus removing the impurities.This produced the base material which could then be used with more iron, or without, for the pamor. I do not know of any current era keris makers who have welded meteoritic material to make pamor material. Some years ago I welded some meteoritic material to produce a solid ingot of meteoritic material. I did not incorporate it into iron prior to welding it, but welded the small pieces of meteoritic material together, and then repeatedly folded and rewelded these to produce a solid, clean piece of pure meteoritic material. This was passed to a maker in Surakarta to produce a keris using this as pamor material. I was dissatisfied with this keris and it was sold to (I believe) the Ambassador for Venezuela to Indonesia. There was sufficient material for a second keris, and with this second keris I worked more closely with the maker, and a satisfactory blade was produced. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to make a piece of pamor material exclusively of meteoritic material, in the usual type of forge used in Jawa.

10th May 2007, 01:58 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	Raden, to upload images is fairly easy. Just beneath your "Reply" box is an area for "Additional Options". The second one of those says "Manage Attachments". Click on that and follow through. It shpould give you the ability to upload any image on your desktop. And accessing you "Private messages" should be even easier. Go to the top of the page. In the first box, just below the Vikingsword heading there is a thin box that runs the length of the page. On the far right in that box is the private message link that should take you to your messages.