Blunderbuss with bayonet

Ken Maddock · 19th January 2015, 08:20 PM

Hi all
Just recently purchased the attached blunderbuss
It looks to me to be of 1800's production with a typical Brown Bess mechanism, the trigger guard does not have the hole for the sling but it looks like the shape of a BB
the nice aspects of the gun is obviously the spring loaded bayonet but nothing in usual really with this, the spring is broken but this can easily be replaced
What is nice to have are the markings on the barrel, London, and London proof marks So this is city of manufacture but the letters and numbers further down the barrel are what I like most
A-N 7421
This is the irish registration number
A-N being for Antrim ( a county in Northern Ireland) followed by the gun number for the county 7421
Each county obviously has its own two letters

I can not find any records for these numbers being registered against owners but
You never know what turns up.
Hope you like it as it as much as I do, have been looking for one at the right price for a while
I also got a lovely 4 bore percussion shot gun in the same deal but this would be a bit modern for you guys and girls
Keep well
Ken

fernando · 20th January 2015, 03:59 PM

Nice ... very, very nice

These bronze barrels are a rather added value

.

Fernando K · 23rd January 2015, 03:00 PM

hello

I fail to distinguish, but I think the test punches are from Birmingham, or perhaps the particular test the Tower of London

Affectionately. Fernando K
(Sorry for the translator)

Ken Maddock · 23rd January 2015, 06:54 PM

Hi
Fernando
Does the attached pictures help
For the sake. Of completion I also have taken a shot of the proof marks on the other pistol I have up on forum at moment
Regards to all
Ken

kahnjar1 · 23rd January 2015, 07:07 PM

Some clear pics of the proof marks will confirm the origin of this piece. It should be noted though, that the Crown and GR on the lock narrows the age down somewhat. IF the GR is George 3rd then he reigned 1760 to 1820, and was followed by George 4th from 1820 to 1830.....so this narrows things down to a span of only 70 years.
The next king George reigned from 1910 which is too late for this piece.
Stu

Ken.....Looks as if our posts crossed. I will check my book on Proof and come back.
Stu

Well that did not take long....
On the Blunderbus the marks are English used from 1750 to 1800 so that would point to George 3rd. These would be London marks as the Birmingham Proof House was not established until 1813.
The marks on the pistol seem to be London PROVED (Crown and P) and VIEW (Crown and V) marks. I cannot be 100% sure of these marks as they do not exactly match, but are similar to marks for Proved and View used by the London Proof House.
Stu

Ken Maddock · 23rd January 2015, 07:37 PM

Hi Stu
Thanks for the information
Were blunderbuss military issue as the GR lock indicates or would the lock be just used as a standard part on civilian guns
I know they were issued to post carriages but otherwise were they just civilian personal defence
I have another blunderbuss barrel in the attic, brass again, but I think the proof marks are different I will have a look
Regards
Ken

Fernando K · 23rd January 2015, 07:39 PM

hello

The presence of two crossed scepters indicates the "private punch" of the Tower. It was the punch that was submitted by manufacturers, to weapons that were destined to the civilian market, not the Crown. The "Board of Ordnance" in the Tower, had his own dyno and submitted this to the barrel bought from private manufacturers and testing also admitted of the barrel for the civilian market. Regulatory weapons they received the punch of the two cross and crowned (in addition to the figure of the reigning monarch) scepters and arms for individuals were receiving the same punch, but applied twice.

The absence in the lock of the actual figure, GR and "broad arrow" indicates that a lock intended to be sold to the Crown use and does not get to be used in a service weapon, and the presence of "private punch "the Tower, which is a weapon intended for the civilian market.

The other punches corresponds to Testbed Birmingham, before 1813

Affectionately. Fernando K
(Sorry for the translator)

kahnjar1 · 23rd January 2015, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Maddock

Hi Stu
Thanks for the information
Were blunderbuss military issue as the GR lock indicates or would the lock be just used as a standard part on civilian guns
I know they were issued to post carriages but otherwise were they just civilian personal defence
I have another blunderbuss barrel in the attic, brass again, but I think the proof marks are different I will have a look
Regards
Ken

Point taken. This could have been used (or made for) one of the "crown" enterprises such as Postal, Customs etc. Not likely military, and the use of the so called Broad Arrow mark is not a "given" anyway. Despite no George number, the proof marks place it as George 3rd.

Fernando K · 23rd January 2015, 10:59 PM

Hello

Norman Dixon "Georgian Pistols"

Fernando K

Fernando K · 23rd January 2015, 11:11 PM

Hello

Norman Dixon, "Georgian Pistols"

Fernando K

Fernando K · 23rd January 2015, 11:16 PM

"TOWER OF LONDON PROOFMARK FOR PRIVATE ARMS ON TE PISTOL BY..."

Fernando K · 24th January 2015, 12:19 PM

Hello

Birmingham proof, after 1813, on blunderbuss

Fernando K

Ken Maddock · 24th January 2015, 02:24 PM

Hi
Thanks all for the information
I have retrieved the barrel from the attic and taken some shots
While I was at it I got a brownbess and took some shots of the proof marks on that for the sake of completion of the tread to see what military markings look like, it is not as rusty as it looks in the photos
All are included in the attached

blunderbuss barrel proof marks followed by an overall shot of the barrel sans gun,
With the Brown Bess in the middle

If anyone has a lock they would like to part with I would love the chance to re build the blunderbuss
All the best
Ken

Fernando K · 24th January 2015, 03:16 PM

Hi, Ken

Punches test in bronze barrel belong to Birmingham,. before 1813

The iron barrel does not belong to a military weapon, has two punch of "private punch" of the Tower and the average of the two private punch barrel maker who can not quite make out who is responsible. Military weapons have the punch of tests Tower (two crossed scepters and crowned) and the actual figure of the reigning monarch, crowned, and under the "broad arrow".

The third barrel is not the same as the second photograph, and this ochavado and then rounded, not belonging to a Brown Bess.

Affectionately. Fernando K
(Sorry for the translator)

Ken Maddock · 24th January 2015, 03:47 PM

Hi Fernando
Interesting that the Brown Bess is not military issue, I will probably get some more shots of it as soon as I can, busy here for next few days, our little boys birthday is coming up.
Sorry my pictures were a bit confusing in that the way I posted them . on the forum they scrambled a bit from the order I posted them.
The octagonal barrel belongs to a separate blunderbuss but all I have is the barrel.
Thanks
For all the help
Ken

Fernando K · 24th January 2015, 03:49 PM

Hi, Ken

Reviewing the pictures, I see that the third is for the blunderbuss with barrel. Sorry

Fernando K

kronckew · 24th January 2015, 08:27 PM

i assume, hopefully, that all the above references to taking shots with these refer to photographs rather than gunpower/wad/lead shot firings.

considering the subject using 'shot(s)' is amusing.

fernando · 24th January 2015, 09:10 PM

Photo shots, gun shots, tequilla shots ... take a pick

Fernando K · 24th January 2015, 09:42 PM

Hi, Ken

A matter of terminology. The word Brown Bess (or Tower) is applied to a service weapon, with all the punches and inscriptions can be found on a military model

Affectionately. Fernando K

Ken Maddock · 24th January 2015, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Photo shots, gun shots, tequilla shots ... take a pick

As it is my birthday tomorrow I think I will go for the alcoholic version of shot

Regards
Ken

kahnjar1 · 24th January 2015, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Maddock

As it is my birthday tomorrow I think I will go for the alcoholic version of shot

Regards
Ken

HAPPY BIRTHDAY

fernando · 25th January 2015, 10:42 AM

Have a great day

19th January 2015, 08:20 PM	#1
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Blunderbuss with bayonet Hi all Just recently purchased the attached blunderbuss It looks to me to be of 1800's production with a typical Brown Bess mechanism, the trigger guard does not have the hole for the sling but it looks like the shape of a BB the nice aspects of the gun is obviously the spring loaded bayonet but nothing in usual really with this, the spring is broken but this can easily be replaced What is nice to have are the markings on the barrel, London, and London proof marks So this is city of manufacture but the letters and numbers further down the barrel are what I like most A-N 7421 This is the irish registration number A-N being for Antrim ( a county in Northern Ireland) followed by the gun number for the county 7421 Each county obviously has its own two letters I can not find any records for these numbers being registered against owners but You never know what turns up. Hope you like it as it as much as I do, have been looking for one at the right price for a while I also got a lovely 4 bore percussion shot gun in the same deal but this would be a bit modern for you guys and girls Keep well Ken Attached Images

23rd January 2015, 06:54 PM	#4
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi Fernando Does the attached pictures help For the sake. Of completion I also have taken a shot of the proof marks on the other pistol I have up on forum at moment Regards to all Ken Attached Images

23rd January 2015, 07:07 PM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,728	Proof Marks and Dating Some clear pics of the proof marks will confirm the origin of this piece. It should be noted though, that the Crown and GR on the lock narrows the age down somewhat. IF the GR is George 3rd then he reigned 1760 to 1820, and was followed by George 4th from 1820 to 1830.....so this narrows things down to a span of only 70 years. The next king George reigned from 1910 which is too late for this piece. Stu Ken.....Looks as if our posts crossed. I will check my book on Proof and come back. Stu Well that did not take long.... On the Blunderbus the marks are English used from 1750 to 1800 so that would point to George 3rd. These would be London marks as the Birmingham Proof House was not established until 1813. The marks on the pistol seem to be London PROVED (Crown and P) and VIEW (Crown and V) marks. I cannot be 100% sure of these marks as they do not exactly match, but are similar to marks for Proved and View used by the London Proof House. Stu Last edited by kahnjar1; 23rd January 2015 at 07:27 PM.

23rd January 2015, 11:11 PM	#10
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Hello Norman Dixon, "Georgian Pistols" Fernando K Attached Images

24th January 2015, 12:19 PM	#12
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Hello Birmingham proof, after 1813, on blunderbuss Fernando K Attached Images

20th January 2015, 03:59 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Nice ... very, very nice These bronze barrels are a rather added value .

23rd January 2015, 03:00 PM	#3
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	hello I fail to distinguish, but I think the test punches are from Birmingham, or perhaps the particular test the Tower of London Affectionately. Fernando K (Sorry for the translator)

23rd January 2015, 07:37 PM	#6
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi Stu Thanks for the information Were blunderbuss military issue as the GR lock indicates or would the lock be just used as a standard part on civilian guns I know they were issued to post carriages but otherwise were they just civilian personal defence I have another blunderbuss barrel in the attic, brass again, but I think the proof marks are different I will have a look Regards Ken

23rd January 2015, 07:39 PM	#7
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	hello The presence of two crossed scepters indicates the "private punch" of the Tower. It was the punch that was submitted by manufacturers, to weapons that were destined to the civilian market, not the Crown. The "Board of Ordnance" in the Tower, had his own dyno and submitted this to the barrel bought from private manufacturers and testing also admitted of the barrel for the civilian market. Regulatory weapons they received the punch of the two cross and crowned (in addition to the figure of the reigning monarch) scepters and arms for individuals were receiving the same punch, but applied twice. The absence in the lock of the actual figure, GR and "broad arrow" indicates that a lock intended to be sold to the Crown use and does not get to be used in a service weapon, and the presence of "private punch "the Tower, which is a weapon intended for the civilian market. The other punches corresponds to Testbed Birmingham, before 1813 Affectionately. Fernando K (Sorry for the translator)

23rd January 2015, 10:59 PM	#9
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Hello Norman Dixon "Georgian Pistols" Fernando K

23rd January 2015, 11:16 PM	#11
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	"TOWER OF LONDON PROOFMARK FOR PRIVATE ARMS ON TE PISTOL BY..."

24th January 2015, 02:24 PM	#13
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi Thanks all for the information I have retrieved the barrel from the attic and taken some shots While I was at it I got a brownbess and took some shots of the proof marks on that for the sake of completion of the tread to see what military markings look like, it is not as rusty as it looks in the photos All are included in the attached blunderbuss barrel proof marks followed by an overall shot of the barrel sans gun, With the Brown Bess in the middle If anyone has a lock they would like to part with I would love the chance to re build the blunderbuss All the best Ken Attached Images

24th January 2015, 03:16 PM	#14
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Hi, Ken Punches test in bronze barrel belong to Birmingham,. before 1813 The iron barrel does not belong to a military weapon, has two punch of "private punch" of the Tower and the average of the two private punch barrel maker who can not quite make out who is responsible. Military weapons have the punch of tests Tower (two crossed scepters and crowned) and the actual figure of the reigning monarch, crowned, and under the "broad arrow". The third barrel is not the same as the second photograph, and this ochavado and then rounded, not belonging to a Brown Bess. Affectionately. Fernando K (Sorry for the translator)

24th January 2015, 03:47 PM	#15
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi Fernando Interesting that the Brown Bess is not military issue, I will probably get some more shots of it as soon as I can, busy here for next few days, our little boys birthday is coming up. Sorry my pictures were a bit confusing in that the way I posted them . on the forum they scrambled a bit from the order I posted them. The octagonal barrel belongs to a separate blunderbuss but all I have is the barrel. Thanks For all the help Ken

24th January 2015, 03:49 PM	#16
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Hi, Ken Reviewing the pictures, I see that the third is for the blunderbuss with barrel. Sorry Fernando K

24th January 2015, 08:27 PM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	i assume, hopefully, that all the above references to taking shots with these refer to photographs rather than gunpower/wad/lead shot firings. considering the subject using 'shot(s)' is amusing.

24th January 2015, 09:10 PM	#18
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Photo shots, gun shots, tequilla shots ... take a pick

24th January 2015, 09:42 PM	#19
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	Hi, Ken A matter of terminology. The word Brown Bess (or Tower) is applied to a service weapon, with all the punches and inscriptions can be found on a military model Affectionately. Fernando K

25th January 2015, 10:42 AM	#22
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,639	Have a great day