Watering on a tulwar blade

Jeff D · 25th January 2005, 03:27 PM

Hi Jens,

I will post the entire sword when I get it back from Philip, I don't want to distract from this great thread of yours.
Tom, it is definitely ground and chiseled, as mentioned I will post it this summer after it has been repolished.

Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2005, 07:49 PM

Thank you for your interest Jeff.
One more thing, which I have not mentioned before is, that the blade is sharp - very sharp. When cleaning it I have cut muself a few times, although I knew I had to be careful.

Battara · 25th January 2005, 10:19 PM

Sorry for getting in on this so late. Jens, one of the reasons I can see someone scratching an area more than "needed" is that as one hits metal, especially like gold or silver (or even brass) the metal expands horizontally. Precise lining of a border is nearly impossible for the old techniques (and even today) of inlay and koftgari. As it expands, you would want all of the precious metal to catch in as many grooves as possible and thus lessen the chance of comming out later. Also, these were done by hand and some impression is to be expected, so any metal that wondered slightly out of the original plan is covered by extra grooves just in case.

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2005, 03:31 AM

Brian and Jens, thank you for the kind notes!

Jeff, extremely nice blade features on the kilic you show. You are right, these Ottoman kilic typically have very profound fluorishes and accented features in the blade, which as previously noted often focus on the prominant yelman.
These examples typically date from 18th century onward, and it seems these more flamboyant decorative elements in the blade and weapon overall are characteristic of many ,if not most Central Asian edged weapons.

The Venetian, and actually also Brescian falchions/storta that I was considering are mostly of the 16th century, and Tom brings in a very valid point. Could these elaborately flourished blades have been inspired by Central Asian designs and styles that were found within the Ottoman sphere and certainly seen in the constant warfare between these cultural spheres? It would seem quite probably.

This brings this conundrum to an interesting position, was this particular flourish or flamboyant blade design the result of indirect and diffused influence from Central Asian forms via the weapons of Italian armourers and direct trade contact, or from weapons of Central Asia directly via the Mughal courts? Brian's suggestion that this may be a revival type form, especially created for wealthy and important individuals for presentation is also keenly placed.

As always, all points must be considered as further discussion continues.

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 26th January 2005, 06:07 AM

Thanks Jim,

As always, more questions then answers. Where does the false edge or yelman arise, is it Tatar, Mongol, or other? I think this will be my next quest, and a separate thread.

Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 26th January 2005, 04:15 PM

I think you should be able to see the koftgari scratches here.

Battara · 26th January 2005, 08:55 PM

That is some thick koftgari indeed! As for that much area not covered by koftgari, I don't know, except that perhaps it was prepared by someone else and not as much room was needed afterall.

tom hyle · 27th January 2005, 12:58 PM

Have you considered that this is a non-original koftgari applie where a larger one had gone missing? In any event, the larger hatched area doesn't seem that unusual to me though. Perhaps the man who did the hatching and the man who did the gold laying were traditionally different men? Speculation.....

Jens Nordlunde · 27th January 2005, 01:37 PM

There are no traces of a bigger decoration on either side of the blade, so I doubt that can be the reason.
In one of my books, I have unfortunately forgotten which, but it could be in the one by Francois Bernier, Travels in the Mogul Empire A.D. 1656-1668, the author writes, that customers can look in books with many different designs before they order a hilt. This could indicate that it was the goldsmith who made the hatching for koftgari, but it does not mean that he did, maybe he had the hatching made at the blade smith’ after his instructions – I will have to go on reading.

tom hyle · 27th January 2005, 02:04 PM

It seems like I've heard or read that the gold-layer does the hatching, but I'm unsure, so thought I'd point out the possibility. I wonder if they had some kind of ink they used to lay out the writing/design on the hatched area, or if they did it free-hand, too.

CharlesS · 23rd March 2014, 05:08 PM

In January I was able to find a sword almost identical to Jens'(Thanks Runjeet!) except for the hilt motifs, and Jens' is in better condition overall. The sword is rather small(which I like!) but beautifully balanced and its unique yelman and superior wootz really make it stand out. The polish was done by Philip Tom, as was the new scabbard's wooden core. The fittings were done by Thomaz Kaczor in Canada.

It all came together to create a stunning piece.

Jens Nordlunde · 19th September 2018, 09:27 PM

Ok this is an old thread, but I have a question.
Charles, the tulwar you show in post 49, did you ever get the text translated?

I now have a translation, made by a kind member of the forum, but before I show it, I would like to know if you have the text translated.

Runjeet Singh · 21st September 2018, 10:59 AM

Dear Jens,

I do apologise I have been away exhibiting and only just returned. I dont think I did have the inscription translated when I sold the sword to Charles, so I would be interested to hear what it says.

Thanks for your interest in this, as well as being very pretty, the sword had a great feel to it, I'm sure yours does too.

Kind Regards,
Runjeet

Jens Nordlunde · 21st September 2018, 02:21 PM

The one who translated the text told me that it says "Rup Abdullah Sahib (owner) sanah 1150".
He did, however, add, that there seem to be ssomething strange about the number/year.

26th January 2005, 06:07 AM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thanks Jim, As always, more questions then answers. Where does the false edge or yelman arise, is it Tatar, Mongol, or other? I think this will be my next quest, and a separate thread. Jeff Attached Images

26th January 2005, 04:15 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	I think you should be able to see the koftgari scratches here. Attached Images

27th January 2005, 01:37 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	There are no traces of a bigger decoration on either side of the blade, so I doubt that can be the reason. In one of my books, I have unfortunately forgotten which, but it could be in the one by Francois Bernier, Travels in the Mogul Empire A.D. 1656-1668, the author writes, that customers can look in books with many different designs before they order a hilt. This could indicate that it was the goldsmith who made the hatching for koftgari, but it does not mean that he did, maybe he had the hatching made at the blade smith’ after his instructions – I will have to go on reading. Attached Images

23rd March 2014, 05:08 PM	#11
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	In January I was able to find a sword almost identical to Jens'(Thanks Runjeet!) except for the hilt motifs, and Jens' is in better condition overall. The sword is rather small(which I like!) but beautifully balanced and its unique yelman and superior wootz really make it stand out. The polish was done by Philip Tom, as was the new scabbard's wooden core. The fittings were done by Thomaz Kaczor in Canada. It all came together to create a stunning piece. Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 23rd March 2014 at 07:01 PM.

19th September 2018, 09:27 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Ok this is an old thread, but I have a question. Charles, the tulwar you show in post 49, did you ever get the text translated? I now have a translation, made by a kind member of the forum, but before I show it, I would like to know if you have the text translated. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 20th September 2018 at 11:46 AM.

25th January 2005, 03:27 PM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jens, I will post the entire sword when I get it back from Philip, I don't want to distract from this great thread of yours. Tom, it is definitely ground and chiseled, as mentioned I will post it this summer after it has been repolished. Jeff

25th January 2005, 07:49 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Thank you for your interest Jeff. One more thing, which I have not mentioned before is, that the blade is sharp - very sharp. When cleaning it I have cut muself a few times, although I knew I had to be careful.

25th January 2005, 10:19 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Sorry for getting in on this so late. Jens, one of the reasons I can see someone scratching an area more than "needed" is that as one hits metal, especially like gold or silver (or even brass) the metal expands horizontally. Precise lining of a border is nearly impossible for the old techniques (and even today) of inlay and koftgari. As it expands, you would want all of the precious metal to catch in as many grooves as possible and thus lessen the chance of comming out later. Also, these were done by hand and some impression is to be expected, so any metal that wondered slightly out of the original plan is covered by extra grooves just in case.

26th January 2005, 03:31 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Brian and Jens, thank you for the kind notes! Jeff, extremely nice blade features on the kilic you show. You are right, these Ottoman kilic typically have very profound fluorishes and accented features in the blade, which as previously noted often focus on the prominant yelman. These examples typically date from 18th century onward, and it seems these more flamboyant decorative elements in the blade and weapon overall are characteristic of many ,if not most Central Asian edged weapons. The Venetian, and actually also Brescian falchions/storta that I was considering are mostly of the 16th century, and Tom brings in a very valid point. Could these elaborately flourished blades have been inspired by Central Asian designs and styles that were found within the Ottoman sphere and certainly seen in the constant warfare between these cultural spheres? It would seem quite probably. This brings this conundrum to an interesting position, was this particular flourish or flamboyant blade design the result of indirect and diffused influence from Central Asian forms via the weapons of Italian armourers and direct trade contact, or from weapons of Central Asia directly via the Mughal courts? Brian's suggestion that this may be a revival type form, especially created for wealthy and important individuals for presentation is also keenly placed. As always, all points must be considered as further discussion continues. Best regards, Jim

26th January 2005, 08:55 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	That is some thick koftgari indeed! As for that much area not covered by koftgari, I don't know, except that perhaps it was prepared by someone else and not as much room was needed afterall.

27th January 2005, 12:58 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Have you considered that this is a non-original koftgari applie where a larger one had gone missing? In any event, the larger hatched area doesn't seem that unusual to me though. Perhaps the man who did the hatching and the man who did the gold laying were traditionally different men? Speculation.....

27th January 2005, 02:04 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It seems like I've heard or read that the gold-layer does the hatching, but I'm unsure, so thought I'd point out the possibility. I wonder if they had some kind of ink they used to lay out the writing/design on the hatched area, or if they did it free-hand, too.

21st September 2018, 10:59 AM	#13
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Dear Jens, I do apologise I have been away exhibiting and only just returned. I dont think I did have the inscription translated when I sold the sword to Charles, so I would be interested to hear what it says. Thanks for your interest in this, as well as being very pretty, the sword had a great feel to it, I'm sure yours does too. Kind Regards, Runjeet

21st September 2018, 02:21 PM	#14
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	The one who translated the text told me that it says "Rup Abdullah Sahib (owner) sanah 1150". He did, however, add, that there seem to be ssomething strange about the number/year.