Seeking Help in Identifyling Keris

milandro · 20th March 2024, 10:27 PM

the paint , assuming that that is paint, can be removed also from hot water alone. Maybe it is peech and hot water would work too.

There is also a chance that it won't come off and then other methods would be needed.

The hilt has to be removed before you do anything.

You say : " The wood hilt is lined with a very old brittle fabric, possibly used as a spacer..."

The majority of krises with the exception of Moro Krises , use hilts that are friction mounted and use all sorts of materials between the pesi or peksy ( the tang) and the hilt.

You MAY want to clean and stain the blade after removing whatever coats it. Staining is traditionally done by the use of Warangan.

There are many threads about staining a keris blade.

Sajen · 20th March 2024, 10:58 PM

I like the jerejan!

A. G. Maisey · 21st March 2024, 01:57 AM

It might be best to stick with "pesi", this is Javanese & it means specifically the tang of a keris.

There is no word "peksy", but "peksi" is Kromo, & it means "bird", the Ngoko is "manuk".

The word "pesi" is also a variant spelling of "peksi", this variation has been caused by the pronunciation of the "k" as a glottal stop, which can make it unheard in speech.

David · 21st March 2024, 06:56 PM

Geoffrey, as mentioned, there are numerous threads in our archives that cover the cleaning of keris. Here in one that is pretty good, but you may want to search our archives for "keris maintenance" or "keris cleaning" or "warangan" and read them all if you plan to embark on cleaning up this keris. If is were mine i would definitely clean it and attempt to restore the hilt somewhat, as it seems like it also needs a bit of attention and it is a somewhat rare style that should be maintained.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23934
The first thing i would do is remove that hilt completely and try to rejuvenate it a bit with a good wood oil. As mentioned, keris hilts are pressure fit with cloth or string. You can remove that old tattered material and any that you find caught up in the pesi hole of the hilt and replace it with a new strip of cloth when the time comes to place the hilt back on.
I would reiterate Kai's advice to NOT boil the blade in saltwater. I don't think the salt is a very good idea. Some varnishes can be difficult to remove. Given the black colour this seems more like some sort of paint, but who knows what goes through the crazed minds of some of these museum folk when it comes to keris preservation. LOL!

If this was mine i would simply lose the current hilt cup and spacer, especially since it is not silver. I am not even going to continue calling it a "selut/mendhak" even in quotation marks because it is neither of those. These type of fittings do not seem culturally appropriate to this keris. It is not too difficult to obtain a decent mendhak for a reasonable price. They pop up fairly often on ebay or you can google "mendak" and find many for sale on the internet. I'm even willing to bet that if you put up an in-search-of on our Swap page that someone would come to your aid.
What you are looking for to match to this hilt is something similar to the examples i have attached here. There are lots of variations and some styles will be more appropriate than others dependant upon the origin of this keris. Alan has suggested that your keris may have a East Jawa origin. There are a few of that variety in the last grouping which one of Alan's photographs, so perhaps he could guide you to a correct style for this ensemble.

milandro · 21st March 2024, 07:47 PM

I would like to understand the aversion to the use of salt in light of the fact that here lots of people etch krises by using salt, sulphur and rice water....

How is that salt any different from the other?

watch this to see how a blade is caked with salt, sulphur slurry made with rice water ....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=259289

Anyway the boiling is salt water could be substituted by hot water alone if you must but remember that any salt residue would be removed by cleaning and furthermore any etching done preferably with Warangal would take care of removal of salt.

I have done this 3 times and still have no adverse effects

A. G. Maisey · 21st March 2024, 08:49 PM

The hilt is certainly worth some sympathetic attention, its main problem is severe cracking.

With cracking like this in a hilt it would be unusual for it to support a pressure fit.

If the hilt were mine I would consider two ways to go.

1) give it a good clean with furniture oil & a toothbrush, followed by hand rubbibg over time with furniture oil, then place it on a stand rather than use on a keris.

2) support the hilt in a bench vice so that the cracks come together, use old newspaper to prevent the vice damaging the hilt, using sharp drills of increasing sizes gradually enlarge & clean the tang hole in the hilt so that it will accept a close fitting inlay, a piece of dowel is suitable for the inlay.

Remove the hilt from the vice and test to see if it is possible to clean out the cracking with fine wire.

When the cracks are either clean or uncleanable, replace the hilt into the vice as it was previously, protected by newspaper, with the cracks in a position where they can be brought together, then using tinted two part epoxy resin, the slow drying/super strength type, insert the inlay, cover both the inside of the hole & the inlay with the adhesive.

When the inlay is inserted the adhesive will squeeze out of the cracks, now you bring the cracks together by gently tightening the vice.

Allow the adhesive to set. It is a good idea to smear silicon polish on the external surfaces of the hilt prior to using the adhesive, this facilitates removal of the adhesive, which is best removed at the point where it has begun to set but is not yet hard & has lost its stickyness, a sharpened bambu sate stick is a good tool for this, then wipe over with a rag that is lightly damp with mineral turpentine.

Give the adhesive time to cure well, around a week is usual, then clean the hilt with furniture oil, drill a hole for the hilt and refit to the keris.

When refitting a hilt with cracking like this it is best to use wool and restrict the pressure to the top half of the pesi.

EDIT

When the hole for the pesi is drilled it is perhaps a good idea to mark the centre of the inlay with a scribe --- make a small hole with the scribe point to guide the drill --- & then begin with a very small drill bit, say 1/8th inch & incrementally increase size, also support the hilt in vice & with newspaper protection.

A. G. Maisey · 21st March 2024, 08:52 PM

In respect of a suitable mendak.

In the absence of a wrongko, it is not really possible to make a recommendation for a mendak, just use one that is a suitable fit.

21st March 2024, 06:56 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,042	Geoffrey, as mentioned, there are numerous threads in our archives that cover the cleaning of keris. Here in one that is pretty good, but you may want to search our archives for "keris maintenance" or "keris cleaning" or "warangan" and read them all if you plan to embark on cleaning up this keris. If is were mine i would definitely clean it and attempt to restore the hilt somewhat, as it seems like it also needs a bit of attention and it is a somewhat rare style that should be maintained. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23934 The first thing i would do is remove that hilt completely and try to rejuvenate it a bit with a good wood oil. As mentioned, keris hilts are pressure fit with cloth or string. You can remove that old tattered material and any that you find caught up in the pesi hole of the hilt and replace it with a new strip of cloth when the time comes to place the hilt back on. I would reiterate Kai's advice to NOT boil the blade in saltwater. I don't think the salt is a very good idea. Some varnishes can be difficult to remove. Given the black colour this seems more like some sort of paint, but who knows what goes through the crazed minds of some of these museum folk when it comes to keris preservation. LOL! If this was mine i would simply lose the current hilt cup and spacer, especially since it is not silver. I am not even going to continue calling it a "selut/mendhak" even in quotation marks because it is neither of those. These type of fittings do not seem culturally appropriate to this keris. It is not too difficult to obtain a decent mendhak for a reasonable price. They pop up fairly often on ebay or you can google "mendak" and find many for sale on the internet. I'm even willing to bet that if you put up an in-search-of on our Swap page that someone would come to your aid. What you are looking for to match to this hilt is something similar to the examples i have attached here. There are lots of variations and some styles will be more appropriate than others dependant upon the origin of this keris. Alan has suggested that your keris may have a East Jawa origin. There are a few of that variety in the last grouping which one of Alan's photographs, so perhaps he could guide you to a correct style for this ensemble. Attached Images

21st March 2024, 07:47 PM	#5
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 421	I would like to understand the aversion to the use of salt in light of the fact that here lots of people etch krises by using salt, sulphur and rice water.... How is that salt any different from the other? watch this to see how a blade is caked with salt, sulphur slurry made with rice water .... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=259289 Anyway the boiling is salt water could be substituted by hot water alone if you must but remember that any salt residue would be removed by cleaning and furthermore any etching done preferably with Warangal would take care of removal of salt. I have done this 3 times and still have no adverse effects Last edited by milandro; 21st March 2024 at 07:58 PM.

21st March 2024, 08:49 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,731	The hilt is certainly worth some sympathetic attention, its main problem is severe cracking. With cracking like this in a hilt it would be unusual for it to support a pressure fit. If the hilt were mine I would consider two ways to go. 1) give it a good clean with furniture oil & a toothbrush, followed by hand rubbibg over time with furniture oil, then place it on a stand rather than use on a keris. 2) support the hilt in a bench vice so that the cracks come together, use old newspaper to prevent the vice damaging the hilt, using sharp drills of increasing sizes gradually enlarge & clean the tang hole in the hilt so that it will accept a close fitting inlay, a piece of dowel is suitable for the inlay. Remove the hilt from the vice and test to see if it is possible to clean out the cracking with fine wire. When the cracks are either clean or uncleanable, replace the hilt into the vice as it was previously, protected by newspaper, with the cracks in a position where they can be brought together, then using tinted two part epoxy resin, the slow drying/super strength type, insert the inlay, cover both the inside of the hole & the inlay with the adhesive. When the inlay is inserted the adhesive will squeeze out of the cracks, now you bring the cracks together by gently tightening the vice. Allow the adhesive to set. It is a good idea to smear silicon polish on the external surfaces of the hilt prior to using the adhesive, this facilitates removal of the adhesive, which is best removed at the point where it has begun to set but is not yet hard & has lost its stickyness, a sharpened bambu sate stick is a good tool for this, then wipe over with a rag that is lightly damp with mineral turpentine. Give the adhesive time to cure well, around a week is usual, then clean the hilt with furniture oil, drill a hole for the hilt and refit to the keris. When refitting a hilt with cracking like this it is best to use wool and restrict the pressure to the top half of the pesi. EDIT When the hole for the pesi is drilled it is perhaps a good idea to mark the centre of the inlay with a scribe --- make a small hole with the scribe point to guide the drill --- & then begin with a very small drill bit, say 1/8th inch & incrementally increase size, also support the hilt in vice & with newspaper protection. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 21st March 2024 at 09:56 PM.

20th March 2024, 10:27 PM	#1
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 421	the paint , assuming that that is paint, can be removed also from hot water alone. Maybe it is peech and hot water would work too. There is also a chance that it won't come off and then other methods would be needed. The hilt has to be removed before you do anything. You say : " The wood hilt is lined with a very old brittle fabric, possibly used as a spacer..." The majority of krises with the exception of Moro Krises , use hilts that are friction mounted and use all sorts of materials between the pesi or peksy ( the tang) and the hilt. You MAY want to clean and stain the blade after removing whatever coats it. Staining is traditionally done by the use of Warangan. There are many threads about staining a keris blade.

20th March 2024, 10:58 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,558	I like the jerejan!

21st March 2024, 01:57 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,731	It might be best to stick with "pesi", this is Javanese & it means specifically the tang of a keris. There is no word "peksy", but "peksi" is Kromo, & it means "bird", the Ngoko is "manuk". The word "pesi" is also a variant spelling of "peksi", this variation has been caused by the pronunciation of the "k" as a glottal stop, which can make it unheard in speech.

21st March 2024, 08:52 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,731	In respect of a suitable mendak. In the absence of a wrongko, it is not really possible to make a recommendation for a mendak, just use one that is a suitable fit.