Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 30th March 2015, 08:46 PM   #1
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,962
Default Show us your ball butt.... pistol

Show us your ball butt pistols!
Yes I know, it's easy, but in fact it's a very serious thread about the Turkish ball butt pistol. The shape is close to the Caucasian pistol but with a lot of inlays: wires, mother of pearl, coral... The lock can be Caucasian or "European".
I just enclose some examples recently sold.
If you have any of these pistols...
Also do you know where they came from and if they were really used?
Kubur
Attached Images
     
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th March 2015, 08:56 PM   #2
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,962
Default

another one with Turkish / Balkans lock
Attached Images
 
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2015, 06:02 PM   #3
Ivo
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 38
Default

Hello,
here are pictures of mine.
Regards,
Ivo
Attached Images
     
Ivo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2020, 03:11 PM   #4
qusko
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 25
Default

Dear forum members,

I've bought attached balkan ball butt pistol. Do you know how barrel was attached to the stock? There is no place for a pin and it is only fixed by the screw on top of the lock.

Example I have was with a band, but for me it looks like not original one (replacement). In some other examples I saw silver wire, but it also looks like a temporary solution (even though .. maybe from the past)
Attached Images
  
qusko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2020, 09:36 PM   #5
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,962
Default

Very good catch congratulations!
Please do not use a bad Moroccan band!
Just a simple metal wire, iron, lead or copper will do the job
Look at the photo above and let us see the result

And here my ball butt, I let the pistol as it is.
Attached Images
 
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd December 2020, 10:40 PM   #6
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 605
Default

Hello

I wonder if the barrel is not fixed to stock for some kind of payment

Affectionately
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2020, 09:52 AM   #7
qusko
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Very good catch congratulations!
Please do not use a bad Moroccan band!
Just a simple metal wire, iron, lead or copper will do the job
Look at the photo above and let us see the result

Thanks Kubur ! Apart of barrel, there are some mother of pearl inlays I need to focus on (someone has tried to fix it but without required precision : ) )

Of course Moroccan band does not fit and the wire is a way to go. Just wondered how other barrels without a wire are attached to the stock ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
And here my ball butt, I let the pistol as it is.

Very nice example. I saw him in your other post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=ball+pistol

Can you share what have you used as a red cover of some inlays you have there (it was not a coral per what I see)? I am quite interested as I see that red decorations in ottoman pistols/muskets from Africa, Balkans, ..

Do you have a barrel fixed with a pin?
qusko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2020, 08:48 PM   #8
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,560
Default

Merry Christmas to ALL that celebrate the Holiday.

Hi Kubur. Hope all has been well for you.

I've never been able to locate one of these interesting ball-butt Balkan pistols for my collection. At least not at a reasonable price.
I think the ball-butt is somewhat a carry over feature from the wheellock era.
It would facilitate the hand grip draw from the holster on the horse saddle, and double as a club. And they all seemed built with no trigger guard.

Very seldom have I seen any Balkan style pistol that did not include a barrel band(s). The ones that were pin fastened also appeared to European made pistols for export to the Eastern markets.

Many of these pistols show up with barrel bands from different areas of the region. And many of the bands are later, period replacements - or just newer made 20th Century replacements. Although I have seen them done with very thin wire, usually brass or silver.
It's not too difficult to make a plain barrel band from a sheet of steel, brass, or silver. But most "sheet" material is too thick and difficult to bend and work with. Search for "shim" material. About 0.2032mm is good.

Material for missing inlays: Pearl is easiest to obtain. Supply house for musical instruments (guitars) have many shapes and sizes that can be files to fit. Or just blank sheets.
Bone, even genuine camel bone can be had from suppliers for custom knife making. The bone can be cut to shape and submerged in tea where it will begin to take an aged appearance.
Colored stone type inlays would be more difficult to locate material. While colored glass or even solid colored plastic is available, neither would look right. Of course, genuine semi-precious stones shaped and polished would work, the cost would be too great. I would be looking to find the approximate size red colored beads (not see-through glass) and cut/shape to size.

Net looking pistols !!

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2020, 05:42 PM   #9
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by qusko
Can you share what have you used as a red cover of some inlays you have there (it was not a coral per what I see)? I am quite interested as I see that red decorations in ottoman pistols/muskets from Africa, Balkans, ..

Do you have a barrel fixed with a pin?


Hi Kusko

Well I replaced some red by white bone.
Many red stones are not coral, in fact a lot of them are red glass.
Some red stones? have a hole, I think they were beads like in some jambiya.

What I did is very bad, Rick and others will curse me, I used glue.
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2020, 06:02 PM   #10
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Merry Christmas to ALL that celebrate the Holiday.

Hi Kubur. Hope all has been well for you.

I think the ball-butt is somewhat a carry over feature from the wheellock era.

Rick


Hi Rick,
Still alive. I hope that you are fine too and happy new year!

Yes you are right these pistols are from the wheellock era, like the Caucasians ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl

Very seldom have I seen any Balkan style pistol that did not include a barrel band(s). The ones that were pin fastened also appeared to European made pistols for export to the Eastern markets.

Rick


well for the ball butts it's normal as they are Turkish and not from the Balkans...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2020, 06:08 PM   #11
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 901
Default

....and here I add some fotos of another one with ballbutt and a fantasy gunmaker's signature on the lockplate
Attached Images
        
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2020, 06:26 PM   #12
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
....and here I add some fotos of another one with ballbutt and a fantasy gunmaker's signature on the lockplate


It's the first time that I see a ballbutt with a trigger guard...

I have another ballbutt with glass inlays and barrel band...
Attached Images
  
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th December 2020, 01:29 PM   #13
qusko
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 25
Default

Rick, Kubur,

Thanks for your replies! Adding for others some new pictures I've found.
Attached Images
  
qusko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th December 2020, 05:37 PM   #14
qusko
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 25
Default

Plus some more ..
Attached Images
   
qusko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2020, 09:46 PM   #15
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,077
Default

These are amazing pistols, and I just wanted to add an example of mine which is of course Caucasian, but most probably a Liege product, mid 19th c.
Pretty simple.
Attached Images
 
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2020, 08:13 AM   #16
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
These are amazing pistols, and I just wanted to add an example of mine which is of course Caucasian, but most probably a Liege product, mid 19th c.
Pretty simple.


Hi Jim,
Is this your secret garden? I was thinking that you were obsessed by swords only... I'm sure that Rick will comment the lock and the barrel better than me. Very nice pistol
Best wishes
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd January 2021, 02:53 PM   #17
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,560
Default

Some great photos of these ball butt pistols. And Kubur, you are probably right about it's Turkish origins.

The beautiful example posted by Corado is also the first pistol of this type I've seen with a trigger guard. Looks like it was possibly added later (?) If so, it appears to have been done sometime during the period. Notice the rear of the guard being attached with screws versus the more typical nail on attachment.

Jim's pistol is very interesting. Obviously of Caucasian manufacture. Simply made, but with a back-action style percussion lock. As with other guns from this Region and time, guns made with percussion locks are less commonly encountered. It's the belief of many that this was due to the small supply of percussion caps available in the Region and their high cost.

The back-action percussion lock seems to have appeared sometime around the mid-1840's. Some gunsmiths felt that this action was stronger than the traditional front-action locks as used on most percussion and flintlock guns with the mainspring being positioned to the rear of the breech area versus the front. Other gunsmiths thought that it just transferred the weak area of the wood stock from the front lock bolt to the rear of the pistol grip. In fact, this is still being debated today by gun enthusiasts. Never the less, both front action and back action locks were used during the 1840-1870 period.
One advantage of the back-action lock for pistols was that it allowed the use of larger caliber barrels without the need for the extra wood around the lock area. And Jim's pistol is an excellent example of this. This is also why almost every example of double barrel shotguns that became popular during this time frame have (smaller) rear-action locks.

Hopefully, one day, I'll find one of these Turkish styled ball but pistols. Still looking.

Meantime, my only ball butt Caucasian pistol with the interesting feature that the stock was made from a single horn.

Rick
Attached Images
 
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd January 2021, 03:35 PM   #18
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,204
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi Jim,
Is this your secret garden? I was thinking that you were obsessed by swords only...

Simply astounding, Jim. Have i ever heard that you have got rid of all your arms collection in favor of space for a library in your RV ... AKA bookmobile ? .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd January 2021, 05:53 PM   #19
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,077
Default

Hi Kubur, Ricky and Fernando!!!
Thank you so much guys!
Ricky thank you so much for the great assessment and explanation.

Yes, I do have a secret garden of sorts, but mostly stored away for the 15 years 'on the road' in the 'Bookmobile'. Over time I did get a few guns, but true the swords always have captivated me in the 50 years of collecting.
While intriguing, the guns are far too complicated for my non mechanical understanding, but as always, historically I like them from aesthetic point of view.
I really admire the knowledge of you' gun guys' !!! and Ricky thank you for the generous look at my pistol, which seems far more intriguing now! A very nice new years gift
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd January 2021, 06:07 PM   #20
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,204
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
... Yes, I do have a secret garden of sorts, but mostly stored away for the 15 years 'on the road' in the 'Bookmobile'...

A rather well kept secret ... i should say !
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd January 2021, 07:21 PM   #21
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,560
Default

Thanks Jim. Glad I could help a bit. It's reciprocal. LOL Thanks for your I.D. of my Afghan saber a couple years ago.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th January 2021, 09:54 PM   #22
cyten
Member
 
cyten's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: USA/Russia
Posts: 17
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
These are amazing pistols, and I just wanted to add an example of mine which is of course Caucasian, but most probably a Liege product, mid 19th c.
Pretty simple.


I once discussed with noted Russian Arms collector, Joe Leiper (RIP) about these and he told me:

"1849 Cossack percussion pistol
Пистолет обр 1849г
Probably the most commonly seen Russian pistol from this period is the Liege manufactured 6 line Cossack Pistol. These were a purchased weapon made in Belgium and most have the Perron Tower mark of Liege on the side of the barrel (established 1853?). Some additionally have a Crown V mark as well.

Almost never Russian marked, supposedly delivered for the Crimean war
Rifled, Caliber .60 land to land, 4 groove rifled .20 depth grooves (.640) diameter bore
Liege proof, crown V, Peron tower mark

Reported production is 2000 pistols, but too many of these are seen for this to be true."
cyten is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:39 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.